TVA rate on bathroom renovations

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declanja
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TVA rate on bathroom renovations

Post by declanja »

I am presently having my bathroom renovated and experiencing lots of delays and extra costs from my contractor. What rate of TVA should I pay on a job like this? His charges are about €4000. I have bought the big items such as tiles, shower etc and he is supplying labour, piping, cement, tile adhesive etc. Thanks Declan
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Post by Zingara »

Join the 'I'm sure I'm being ripped off in the S of France' club....I've used the same registered French contractor for some years, but his bill (April 2014) for a 'complete' renovation of a bathroom (exc materials, and tiling the floor) was 10,000€, plus 10% TVA. :shock:
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Post by French Cricket »

10% is right for a reno, as long as the house is more than 2 years old and you've completed the impôts form (artisan should give you that).
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Post by GillianF »

TVA went up to 10% on 1st January. As I understand things the rate you pay will depend on when you signed the devis, the work is done.

It's generally better to let your contractor supply materials even including sanitaryware, tiling etc. because of the lower rate of TVA. If he supplies and fits you pay the lower rate. If he only fits what you supply you must pay the higher rate. He may also have access to wholesale/trade prices and he may be able to pass some of that on to you.

You should have all this detailed on the devis you signed and should always check, very carefully, what work he is including, (including clearing away debris, tidying up etc.) and what he is supplying and at what cost and what you are supplying.

If, for example, he quotes to supply floor tiling he may include that at a 'tiling allowance' of Euros/per square metre but if you then choose something really expensive or with a complicated pattern and more than the allowance it will go on the bill as an 'extra' and you'd pay the difference.

If you think you're being ripped off refer back to the devis and query it with the builder. You may find there are good, legitimate reasons for paying more than you thought - if not then you need to discuss it with him but it should all be in the devis and you would know the costs before you sign up.
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Post by French Cricket »

GillianF wrote:
He may also have access to wholesale/trade prices and he may be able to pass some of that on to you.
Hah!

I normally do all my own tiling but I paid an artisan to have a floor laid (12 square metres) in our second house a while back, simply because I didn't have time to do it - it was still the middle of our season in the Ariège. 170€ for tile cement :shock: :shock: :shock:

Artisans often charge a relatively moderate fee for the work and make it up on taking profit on materials (which is one reason why I use them as rarely as possible!).

(And yes, it was in the devis, but I was over a barrel ...)
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Post by Normandie »

OH would never mark up the retail price of items but neither does he pass on the difference between the retail price and the price to him, trade price - which may be 10-15% for small turnover traders. Customers pay retail.

That percentage difference pays for the messing about factor when he waits to have stuff delivered to site - which may not coincide with him being there so it's a waste of half a day - or it pays for the time it takes him (and me) to inveigle a bath up twisty French stairs into an awkwardly sited bathroom - or it pays for him to go and collect an item, find out on examination that there's a flaw, drive back to the job and then repeat the process of trying to collect three weeks later.

If the customer wants to take on all that hassle for the sake of perhaps 30-50 euros, they're very welcome but otherwise they are not entitled to the difference between retail and trade prices. And nor would they be in the UK... and they probably wouldn't expect it there either, but this goes back to my observation in anther thread where I said that British people often expect work on the cheap or for nothing - which is a general point made from experience and not directed at anyone here.

When putting what's perceived to be high artisan charges for a job out for comment, it's meaningless without specifying the size and state of the existing room - how much preparation is needed before the work can commence, is there underfloor heating (for floor tiling, there has to be specific preparation, adhesive and grout and it is more expensive than standard a and g) etc, and how long the work is estimated to take. Renovation can take much longer than putting in a bathroom from scratch.

And, of course, whatever an artisan's profit is, one way or another (social charges, professional charges, possibly tax) the state'll have at least 50% of the profit.
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Post by declanja »

Thanks for all the advice. He is charging 10% but I have lost trust in him. He gave me an estimate but I signed no "divis" so maybe I have left myself open to overcharging. He also gave me a Siret number which I have tried to check out on a European Commission website (VIES) which seems to shows it as invalid. Anyone any idea of how to double check this? Thanks Declan
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Post by French Cricket »

https://www.infogreffe.fr/societes/rech ... prise.html

There are other sites that will do the same thing - just Google 'verifier Siret'.
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Post by declanja »

Thanks FC for that link. I found him there listed with
"Non Inscrit au Registre du Commerce et des Sociétés " under his name. Would that mean he is no longer registered or that he is registered but not in this group. I almost paranoid about it all now and want to be sure that the TVA is passed on. I had asked him about buying the materials but he didn't say it would work out cheaper for me if he did.

I do find trades people in Nice more expensive than in Ireland but accept that that's the way it is. I know many years ago when property was cheap in Ireland many Germans bought holiday property here and the local tradesmen had special prices for them!Thanks again to everyone
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Post by Normandie »

declanja wrote: He gave me an estimate but I signed no "divis" so maybe I have left myself open to overcharging.
If you haven't signed a devis you aren't on good ground particularly if you are having structural work done or work that affects the structure and anything like plumbing or tiling is that.

Plenty of people don't bother with a devis for a small, non-structural (usually cash) job but not having a detailed devis* for work on a bathroom is not a good idea for a number of reasons:

If he doesn't do the work to a standard - or doesn't do the work at all - you will find it difficult to force him to finish, particularly if you've made any up-front payments and he's not out of pocket by not continuing or doing a poor job.

You won't have a copy of his assurance décennale (or even checked if he has it or is insured to do the work you want) so if things go wrong over the next 10 years (poor plumbing or fitting leading to leaks) with no devis to prove he did the work, you cannot easily seek compensation either via the décennale or via him in his own right.

There's other stuff too (such as invoices from registered artisans often being allowed against CGT if a holiday home is sold) but really, anyone forking out 4000€ with no paperwork is making life difficult for themselves. Even if you know someone well, it's not wrong or ill-mannered to be business-like.

Just as an aside, if nasty things are uncovered during work (a previously unnoticed leak, for eg, which isn't on the devis) then a separate devis must be produced for any additional work over the value of 30€.

Declanja, if your workman hasn't started yet and no money has exchanged hands / he has incurred no expenses (materials, etc) so far then as there is no devis, you can cancel the job without penalty. Or you can insist on a devis which you can analyse and question prior to signing it. And get a copy of his décennale.


*For non-French readers, a devis is a 'quote' specifying in detail work and prices for a specific job and, once signed, is a legally enforceable contract between customer and artisan.
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Post by declanja »

Thanks for your input Normandie. He gave me a detailed estimate on headed paper with his company name, address siret number etc but no written completion date. We have numerous emails in which he had agreed on the date but not written on the estimate. The work is to be completed next week but should have been finished this week. I have no bookings so it hasn't caused problems in this way. I have paid 50% of agreed price by cheque and the rest is due on inspection next week. Even at this stage I can look for more complete paperwork as I would like to have the option of claiming relief if I sell the apartment into the future. I am keen to establish that his siret registration is valid as per my previous reply if anyone can confirm.

Declan
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Post by Normandie »

So his SIRET appeared when you searched but it said he was Non Inscrit au Registre du Commerce et des Sociétés? I don't think it's mandatory to adhere to the RCS but I'm not sure and OH isn't here atm.

If you Google

xxxxxxxxxx siret

replacing the xxxx with the number, the results usually deliver the local office at which he's registered, even if he is AE. It will give the first (and maybe 2nd and 3rd) metier for which he's registered but it's not an exhaustive list so don't panic if you see he's doing something that isn't mentioned.

But ask for a copy of his décennale too and check it is for the current year.
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Post by declanja »

Thanks again. He seems to be on the system. He is listed as a painter/glazier and he got in a plumber and tiler to help him with my job. I will ask him for the documents you mention and hopefully he can provide them. At this stage if the work is completed and seems ok I will be happy to move on. One of the most difficult aspects of owning an overseas property is finding people you can trust with work. We are going to Nice on Tuesday next for a few days so hopefully it will be fine. I will update when there! Declan
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Post by declanja »

Just back from France and an update. We had a crazy few days. The work was not completed properly or done to the specifications I thought we had agreed. The guy I had hired had actually sublet the work to another guy and wasn't on site when the work was being carried out. In the end I had to get someone else in to try and rectify parts of it. The original guy agreed that he had not done as expected and admitted he felt let down by the guy he got. We agreed a much smaller settlement than if done correctly. Fingers crossed that it will be ok but I have no certainty.
Lessons learned;
Check that contractors have the proper documentation.
Get a complete price with all the details and specifications of materials to be used.
Get a finish date and add a clause with a penalty for overrun on this
Have someone you trust to visit the site regularly while work is in progress
Get photos of work as it progresses
The cheapest quote is cheap for a reason

As I read over this it strikes me that that's what one should do with any work but I live in the west of Ireland and here we get local trades people that we trust and we never fix a price!

Thanks again to FC and Normandie for the practical advise. When I asked the guy for his assurance decannale he knew he was in trouble.
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Post by French Cricket »

So sorry to hear all that, Declan.

I freely admit to having a bad case of artisanophobia - I can honestly say that since we've been here I've never been happy with work done by other people (even when I'm onsite and managing the job myself!). Too many shortcuts/specifications not followed to the letter etc.

These days we reluctantly accept having to do everything ourselves - we have a fairly hefty insurance claim job in process at the moment and the insurance company just can't understand why I'm only claiming for materials and not labour. But I've been bitten too often now to take anyone else on.

Not so easy when you're a long way away though.
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