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Giddy Goat
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 9050
Location: UK+France/Midi-Pyrenees
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 Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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 Hopefully he had a twinkle in his eye at the time Lorca!
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kyreniagirl
Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 731
Location: Lymington, Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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What an interesting discussion bought about by unfortunate circumstances. My gut feeling on this is that it wasn't a close relative i.e. Mum, Dad or they would have said so. I suspect the problem was that they wouldn't be there for the relative's funeral & were looking to get around it.
As I said previously a percentage discount on a future booking or refund of costs not incurrred - heating etc. with a willingness to provide documentary evidence for their insurance co.
I think we all now are better armed to deal with this situation if it occurs in future. |
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Jimbo
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 3097
Location: Perigord noir
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Normandie wrote: | | The situation wasn't the same at all. |
No outrage from me Normandie, apologies if it came across that way. Your ‘death certificate’ grenade moved the discussion profitably along.
No argument from me either that owners should stick to their T+Cs, whatever the provocation, if they choose. But I reserve the right to refund if I deem that to be necessary – even if I’m doing it as much for myself as for the guests. Not much point in being in the driving seat if I can’t decide when to brake or accelerate. So I have little sympathy with the suggestion that, by not always playing hardball, I’m contributing to the private rental industry being thought of as a ‘soft touch’. Sometimes refunding is a cool hand.
Interesting thread.
Jim |
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e-richard
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 3167
Location: Algarve, Portugal
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jimbo wrote: | | I reserve the right to refund if I deem that to be necessary – even if I’m doing it as much for myself as for the guests. |
For good or for bad, that is exactly what sets the private rental industry apart, and I, for one, am glad to be a part of that.
But at the same time, I can still hold on to the premise that I do not like being taken advantage of.
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Giddy Goat
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 9050
Location: UK+France/Midi-Pyrenees
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I'm glad to be a part of it too, and often we can get a sense of whether someone's story is genuine or not.
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Greenbarn
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 3009
Location: The Howgills, Cumbria
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jimbo wrote: | So I have little sympathy with the suggestion that, by not always playing hardball, I’m contributing to the private rental industry being thought of as a ‘soft touch’.
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Not exactly the suggestion I was posing.........
........but then as I said earlier
| Greenbarn wrote: | | This is something that occurred to me, and I might phrase this question wrongly, but I'll give it a try. |
Taking the opposite extreme standpoint, if you always accede to any request for a refund, are you then perpetuating the image of holiday rental owners being a soft touch?
That's got the two extremes of the spectrum out of the way.
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Normandie
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
Location: France - southern Manche (50)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenbarn wrote: | Ultimately what we do is down to our relationships with and for the benefit of our guests, for our own benefit, and what we feel most comfortable with so that we can sleep at night.
<snip>
So, as a general rule, if we get a request for a refund should we consider the idea that by giving a refund we're increasing the perception in the minds of people that we're not the same as a hotel, airline or indeed any other business but effectively a soft touch, and by so doing are we therefore doing a disservice to our fellow owners' businesses? And to what extent, if any, should that affect our actions (or whether we sleep at night)? |
Bit of a ramble follows! :-^)
It is tempting to consider the greater good when looking to justify various actions, but with this part of business (financial!) I consciously try not to think in terms of doing things because a side effect may be that my actions may benefit (or not) others in the future – either generally or specifically in our holiday cottage industry.
I don’t think I should factor that sort of thinking or justification into decisions. The possibility of such a result shouldn’t be relevant. I must treat each case purely on the specific circumstances.
Occasionally in discussions on here, the point is made that by billing guests for serious damage and deducting it from a damage deposit, we are making guests think twice about their future behaviour and perhaps making life easier for their future hosts. I’m not convinced we have the power to modify people’s behaviour so easily. Nor is "making people think twice" what I'm in business to do.
It would be interesting if, between us, we could come up with our own LMH industry standard! You know, a sort of “this is our modus operandi in specific guest circumstances” perhaps especially relating to damage deductions and refunds. But ultimately it probably wouldn’t work because as you, GB, said earlier, our circumstances are all different and range from pocket money hobby lettings to sufficient rental income being the key to not having properties repossessed.
The professional hobbyist is potentially more able to be a “soft touch”. They may be able to afford to sleep well in a warm glow of maybe having made the life better for someone genuinely in difficulties. Others will sleep better knowing that by not refunding against last minute cancellations based on unproved assertions made by renters, their mortgage is being met through the winter months when bookings may be sparse.
It’s nice to think we can base our decisions on respect – respect for the renter, their respect for us as business partners in that we’re going to supply their holiday - even make or break it. But the unfortunate reality is that until proven otherwise, the only respect we can guarantee is ours.
That doesn’t mean that I expect people to behave badly – I usually expect the best – but I’m realistic that, where money is concerned, people consider the health of their own bank balance first, not that of complete strangers. That would be us.
And maybe also, people nowadays are a little less willing to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions. Along the lines of: “I book a holiday, I decide against (or don’t even think about) taking out insurance. My circumstances change and I can't or don't want to go any more. But I don’t want to be out of pocket – I want someone else to bear the cost”.
Sorry for the essay but if GB will pose these questions...   |
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Greenbarn
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 3009
Location: The Howgills, Cumbria
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Normandie wrote: |
Sorry for the essay but if GB will pose these questions... |
Normandie, you do realise that your wonderfully considered and enlightening replies do absolutely nothing to discourage me from posing crap questions? (From my years of giving training sessions, the definition of a crap question was one to which there was no simple answer. The definition of a bloody stupid question was one to which there was a simple answer, but a) I couldn't remember it and b) I couldn't call a coffee break so I could rush off and find out as I'd pulled that stunt ten minutes earlier.)
I had to go and Google this, but it was W B Yeats who wrote:
| Quote: | I have spread my dreams under your feet,
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams |
We're in the business of selling dreams.
Tricky, isn't it?
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CarolineH
Joined: 29 Sep 2011
Posts: 575
Location: Nr Dinan, Brittany, France
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Normandie wrote: | My circumstances change and I can't or don't want to go any more.
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The point here is that we don't know their circumstances - perhaps the death of a close relative followed the loss of a job, or several years in debt (that they were just pulling out of so they happened to book a weekend away) and they couldn't afford the travel insurance. So now they're panicking and want their money back safely in the bank.
Or perhaps they're just money grabbing b***ards who are trying to get out of a weekend they've booked and something more interesting has come up ...
Who knows??
Why should they know (or care) what we go through in our lives of running holiday rentals - there are 54 replies to this post - so it proves that it is an important question to us. However, we cannot know (but clearly care) about what goes on in their lives.
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RichardHenshall
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 145
Location: Belfast & Luz, Algarve
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| CarolineH wrote: | | ... there are 54 replies to this post - so it proves that it is an important question to us ... |
I don't think I've read one opinion that I disagree with - so do I or don't I refund?
Perhaps the answer is that there isn't one answer. If we can't decide then maybe our prospective non-guests will be unable to predict either and will chose to take out insurance to provide themselves with a measure of certainty. |
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Jimbo
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 3097
Location: Perigord noir
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The professional hobbyist is potentially more able to be a “soft touch”. They may be able to afford to sleep well in a warm glow of maybe having made the life better for someone genuinely in difficulties. |
Isn’t this just a long-winded way of saying that charity begins at home? I grew up in a world of collective responsibility. Small communities, pressure groups, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, anti-apartheid, trade unions, animal liberation, a woman’s right to choose. I was on the streets at the drop of a hat, wearing the appropriate t-shirt, protesting against this or that. I believed (believe) in giving time and money to foster causes that benefit the community as a whole, not just lining my own nest. I feel no shame or embarrassment about this – it’s part of what made me into me. And, if that makes me a ‘soft touch’ or a ‘professional hobbyist’, so be it. If you - and others - wish to harden your hearts and pull up the drawbridge, that's your choice.
| Quote: | | It would be interesting if, between us, we could come up with our own LMH industry standard! |
And would this ‘industry standard’ include withdrawing our support from (say) review sites that have been proven to damage our competitors’ businesses through publishing spurious data, until they cleaned up their acts? Or is it simply about keeping those pesky guests in order?
| Quote: | | … our circumstances are all different and range from pocket money hobby lettings to sufficient rental income being the key to not having properties repossessed. |
Just in case you imagine that I’m some sort of professional dilettante, making soft-touch decisions secure in the ‘warm glow’ that I’ll never have to face the consequences, I put myself firmly in the latter camp. And the abyss creeps ever closer.
Jim |
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lorca
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 1929
Location: The Axarquia, Spain
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jimbo wrote: | I believed (believe) in giving time and money to foster causes that benefit the community as a whole, not just lining my own nest. I feel no shame or embarrassment about this – it’s part of what made me into me. And, if that makes me a ‘soft touch’ or a ‘professional hobbyist’, so be it. If you - and others - wish to harden your hearts and pull up the drawbridge, that's your choice.
Jim |
...mmm...come on Jimbo, a trifle unfair methinks to assume that those who might choose not to refund in some circumstances do little to benefit their communities, are hardhearted, only interested in "feathering their own nests" and regard guests as "pesky"....
Seems to me there´s great deal of evidence to the contrary here on LMH
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Jimbo
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 3097
Location: Perigord noir
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| lorca wrote: | | ...mmm...come on Jimbo, a trifle unfair methinks to assume that those who might choose not to refund in some circumstances do little to benefit their communities, are hardhearted, only interested in "feathering their own nests" and regard guests as "pesky".... |
...mmm... lorca, is that any more 'unfair' than the assumption that an owner who might - in certain circumstances - choose to refund a rental is a 'soft touch' or a 'professional hobbyist' or (breathtakingly!) is disadvantaging the industry as a whole by such foolishness. I'm hardly suggesting an unquestioning refund to anybody who asks.
Jim |
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Marks
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Costa Blanca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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57 posts and 1225 views and we are still where we were!
As I see it there are those owners who will apply their T&Cs no matter what, those who will refund without question and then the majority who fall into the grey area in between who will take each case in its merits and either refund in full or partially or not at all depending on their own, and their guests circumstances. No one is right and no one is wrong, we do what we feel is right at the time. That's what make private holiday rental owners, and this business we chose to be in, unique.
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Normandie
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
Location: France - southern Manche (50)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Jimbo wrote: | | If you - and others - wish to harden your hearts and pull up the drawbridge, that's your choice. |
Why does "heart" come into this? I'm running a business against a set of terms & conditions. If one of those conditions is no refunds (after whatever combination of dates) and the renter signs up to that clause, where does subsequent "hardening of hearts" come into it?
| Marks wrote: | | No one is right and no one is wrong, we do what we feel is right at the time. |
Yes.  |
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