renovation

If you are planning to buy a rental home, or you're thinking about what to do with one you have just acquired, this is the place for any questions about starting out in the rentals business.
flatbread
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:35 pm
Location: SW France

renovation

Post by flatbread »

Hello,

This is a great site and we had requested your advice when we were thinking of buying a property in France. Well, we have gone ahead and bought a farmhouse this summer and are now ready to renovate - basically add new bathrooms, remodel the kitchen and generally freshen up the place as it looks tired.

Would like your advice on how to go about it. Should we hire an architect to manage the project? We will not be on site, and it seems a sensible thing to do, but are worried about:

1) Higher costs (what is the incentive for the architect to help us think of simple solutions?)
2) Over-renovation resulting in the farmhouse fitting more in Suburbia than rural France

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated. Also, would value any recommendations of project managers,architects or artisans - we are in Aveyron, close to the intersection of department 12 and 82.

Thanks!
User avatar
Normandy Cow
Posts: 2687
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
Location: Normandy
Contact:

Post by Normandy Cow »

Can't offer you any advice re architects Flatbread, but good luck with your project - I hope you have a lot of fun and enjoyment, as we have had over the past 3 years!
Hells Bells
Posts: 13173
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:42 am
Location: French Alps
Contact:

Post by Hells Bells »

I think an architect is eesential. Most of them will save you more money than they cost. You do need to find a sympathetic one though, that will listen to what you want. He/she should only work to your requirements. A local artisan builder will make sure that this happens.
User avatar
enid
Posts: 5599
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: Labretonie France
Contact:

Post by enid »

You could think about a Maitre d'Oeuvre - we used an architect for the first part of our renovation for the gites but for the house we used a Maiter d'Oeuvre - we found the latter much cheaper and much more willing to listen to what we wanted.
Fraise
Posts: 2079
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:25 am
Location: Charente Maritime and Middle England

Post by Fraise »

We didn't use an architect or anyone other than a band of artisans. The first time round we were absent, although we had a keyholder- more happened when we came over to visit, we tended to get put to the back of the queue but the job did get done and the end result was excellent. If we had been waiting to rent out the property or had other time constraints this would not have been the way to go ! The second time we used the same builder and he organised the other trades, we were around most of the time but left them to it, although we did check progress every day.Another excellent job. We trusted our builder as he was highly recommended and we were justified- tremendous job. If you are absent and haven't got anyone highly recommended then you will need someone to oversee everything. It all depends on how hands on you want/can be ?
flatbread
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:35 pm
Location: SW France

renovation

Post by flatbread »

Thanks for your quick replies. How does one find a Maitre d'Oeuvre or good builders/artisans? We really don't know anyone in the area...

Also, do architects, Maitre d'Oeuvre etc. typically show you their portfolio of work or do you just hire and hope for the best.

Thanks again for your thoughts
User avatar
Normandy Cow
Posts: 2687
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
Location: Normandy
Contact:

Post by Normandy Cow »

Have you posted your question on one of forums on the following websites?
www.livingfrance.com
www.totalfrance.com

They are both (as their names suggest!) France-specific, as opposed to this one which is for rental owners worldwide, so you will have a much larger pool of people who will be able to assist you. They also have sections specifically for renovations.

Hope you find what you are looking for.
User avatar
Giddy Goat
Posts: 9054
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:38 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by Giddy Goat »

Depending on how good your French is, it may work out cheaper to employ French people, rather than ex-pats - though I don't have first hand experience, other than trying to get repairs done. And I suppose the best way to track good people down is simply to network in your local area. I should imagine if anyone needs to travel some distance, this will be reflected in their prices, and they may prove less dependable? But others here and on the two French forums Catherine has given you will yield owners with much more in depth experience, so stay glued to your screen for the time being, et bonne chance!
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
la vache!
Posts: 11065
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:22 pm

Post by la vache! »

It is always worth going on word of mouth recommendations, but if that isn't possible you need to get as many quotes 'devis' as possible and also get an promise of when the work will be done and the timescales involved. If you are not on site to manage the project yourself, I think Enid's suggestion is best, as if you have a plumber/electrician, a maçon and a carpenter, there work all needs to be done in a specfic order and artisans do need to be chased from time to time. When we did our renovation I managed the project but had to on occasions go and sit in the plumber/electicians office and force him to send over a workmen if one hadn't turned up for a few days. In my area the maçon was the hardest to find and had the longest waiting period, it may be different where you are. Incidentally my French friends have just as many problems with the artisans as the British do when it comes to building renovation/extension projects!
User avatar
enid
Posts: 5599
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:47 pm
Location: Labretonie France
Contact:

Post by enid »

Try asking at your Mairie for recommendations for buildres etc - we got the name of our architect from the builder and the Maitre d'Oeuvre from the plumber. Also ask neighbours. I agree that they are all getting busier and busier but they do seem ( well here at least) keen to help neighbours. Our builder lives in our village and the plumber/electrician in the next. Don't get me started about using ex pats on the black!!!
Fraise
Posts: 2079
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:25 am
Location: Charente Maritime and Middle England

Post by Fraise »

How to get recommendations in the first place ? Our French was poor many moons ago when we bought our first house ( Hasn't improved all that much since ! :oops: ) so we asked some English people we know in the area if they could recommend any FRENCH builders - even then we knew we didn't want English builders, we wanted a sympathetic renovation, not a quick fix. We were spending well into 6 figures then , so it had to be done properly !! The builder they suggested couldn't start for about 8 months, this was a good sign. His clients were all French ( he has worked for many Brits since!) and our neighbours knew him too, altho at the time we didn't know that, only as time went on. Our neighbours were all delighted that a dilapidated old place was being lovingly restored by a team of local workmen, in the traditional style ( with the addition of several bathrooms/loos- not quite so traditional ! ). If you do employ an architect or someone to oversee still try to go for local craftsmen. The architect may well ask for tenders and of course you could end up with someone from out of the area trying to get in on the act !! Money isn't everything, altho pretty important.
User avatar
Ju
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:56 pm
Location: Vendee, France
Contact:

Post by Ju »

For the work you are talking about I would advise against using an architect. A maitre d'oeuvre would be much better. If not then I would use your plumber and ask him to liaise with the other workmen. If you use the local artisans they should all know each other and have worked together before.

If you can do anything yourself in terms of sketching out what you want then it will help enormously, especially if your language isn't fully up to scratch.

You may be able to find a well established ex-pat who knows which french artisans to use, if so they will be very useful. Where abouts have you bought?

Ju
flatbread
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:35 pm
Location: SW France

thanks

Post by flatbread »

Ju,

We have bought in Aveyron, near Najac. Curious as to why you recommend not using an architect - is it the same concerns we outlined or something else?

Our French leaves much to be desired, so it would really be good to have an interpreter or someone to help manage. Will be at the house next week and will see if we can find out more about local builders

Thanks to all for your thoughts and links to the other French sites
la vache!
Posts: 11065
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:22 pm

Post by la vache! »

I'm sure you know this - but don't get your hopes up too much of sorting out stuff on your trip - August is the worst time in France to find out or talk to anyone - most of the artisans will be on holiday!
User avatar
Ju
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:56 pm
Location: Vendee, France
Contact:

Post by Ju »

An architect will be very expensive for the type of work you detail. We used one for our first barn conversion, and did the second one ourselves. The amount we paid for the architect was high, in my opinion, and I don't feel they added much to the final result. The other problem was that as the architect was not from our village he contracted builders who were not from our village (or from our department come to that). If you are trying to engraciate yourselves with the village then using local workmen is the best way to start.
Post Reply