We are in the process of buying our first holiday let on the Norfolk Coast and I am just getting to grips with things and have to say this forum has been so helpful already.
The property is already run as a holiday let and the previous owners have been successful using an agency and airbnb, however I'd like to avoid using an agency if possible and do most things myself. Which is both daunting and exciting!
So I am wondering if there is anyone else on the forum based in Norfolk who can give me any advice, particularly regarding rental sites - which ones work and which ones don't. And whether I am being mad to go it alone without using an agency at all!
Any other advice would also be much appreciated as this is all very new to me and I'm on a steep learning curve.
Newbie in Norfolk
I have no words of wisdom to offer as I am not in the UK let alone Norfolk, but there are plenty of Norfolkites here and they will be along to offer their experiences.
Re: Newbie in Norfolk
That sums it up nicely! I can't comment on Norfolk, I'm sure others will, but welcome - and you'll find a lot of advice and "Been There T-Shirts" on here.mrsbarkay wrote: ...both daunting and exciting!
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Jemima Copping
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:22 pm
- Location: Scotland
- Contact:
Hi there, I have been in the business since September 2014 and a member of LMH since 2013, Although not in Norfolk. I started off with Airbnb as it was the easiest thing at the time, then moved on to the Cottage Guide and then got my own website. And now have a couple of ads on sites which specialise in Scottish tourism. So no agencies. The website was designed initially by Promote my Place, who are very helpful and still give support if needed at no extra cost. I did a lot of work myself on it and then I got on Freetobook which deals with online booking and payments, once the website was up and running. The Cottage Guide provides a link to my website. It took me at least a couple of months to get the website up and running, but as I am retired I had the time to do it and it was well worth the effort. I now get most of my bookings from my website, and payment also. I don't get much from Airbnb now, but stay listed with them just in case.
I don't think you are mad not to use an agency, you can go it alone, especially if you are on site like we are most of the year.
So, good luck with it!
I don't think you are mad not to use an agency, you can go it alone, especially if you are on site like we are most of the year.
So, good luck with it!
Better to be mutton dressed as lamb than mutton dressed as mutton!
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charles cawley
- Posts: 1205
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:53 pm
- Location: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Borders
There are two types of agency.
A full service agency (not a management agency), that takes time to try to make things run well and does not run away from the first problem saying you have to sort it out by yourself.
And there are agencies like AirBnB- it is an agency- that tend to keep secrets, try to minimise communication between guests and owners and often back away at the first sign of difficulty. The cancellation terms for AirBnB are worth noting: use of words like 'penalize' is also interesting.
A key service a good agency offers is to minimise and help sort out any possible friction between guests and owners. They have experience and will, in most cases, turn what can be very fraught and deeply upsetting situations into a passing worry, soon sorted out. Part service agencies are hopeless at this.
Full service agencies understand that their main customers are owners whilst, of course, giving equal attention to guests. If you have the time and patience going it alone, doing so without full service agencies is often the best bet.
Loss making AirBnB is a wannabe gatekeeper and has a quite primitive marketing policy based on advertising rivals into extinction. It is also set up to cater for the BnB market although, with some difficulty, it is possible to go some way towards using its systems to focus on self-catering demand patterns. But it is worth being clear about the nature of agencies and what is available on the market.
A full service agency (not a management agency), that takes time to try to make things run well and does not run away from the first problem saying you have to sort it out by yourself.
And there are agencies like AirBnB- it is an agency- that tend to keep secrets, try to minimise communication between guests and owners and often back away at the first sign of difficulty. The cancellation terms for AirBnB are worth noting: use of words like 'penalize' is also interesting.
A key service a good agency offers is to minimise and help sort out any possible friction between guests and owners. They have experience and will, in most cases, turn what can be very fraught and deeply upsetting situations into a passing worry, soon sorted out. Part service agencies are hopeless at this.
Full service agencies understand that their main customers are owners whilst, of course, giving equal attention to guests. If you have the time and patience going it alone, doing so without full service agencies is often the best bet.
Loss making AirBnB is a wannabe gatekeeper and has a quite primitive marketing policy based on advertising rivals into extinction. It is also set up to cater for the BnB market although, with some difficulty, it is possible to go some way towards using its systems to focus on self-catering demand patterns. But it is worth being clear about the nature of agencies and what is available on the market.
No web-site for now.
Advice about holiday letting
Advice about holiday letting
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Jemima Copping
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:22 pm
- Location: Scotland
- Contact:
If I was living far away from my property and working at another job I would use an agency in the area, I can appreciate the advantages of doing so. But having plenty of time to myself I can manage well on my own.
Airbnb is another matter. I haven't been getting notifications from them for several months now, which to begin with I did. I missed a couple of bookings because of this, not only that they have threatened me with delisting because of low response rate. I complained but they never bothered to answer. So their customer care is non-existent as far as I am concerned. You are expected to check into the website every day, it's like being back at school!
Airbnb is another matter. I haven't been getting notifications from them for several months now, which to begin with I did. I missed a couple of bookings because of this, not only that they have threatened me with delisting because of low response rate. I complained but they never bothered to answer. So their customer care is non-existent as far as I am concerned. You are expected to check into the website every day, it's like being back at school!
Better to be mutton dressed as lamb than mutton dressed as mutton!
Interesting statement Charles; I imagine AbnB (I do like to try and indicate their true name and origin, ie Airbed and Breakfast with all that an airbed implies) would dispute that they are an agency with the associated responsibility towards both traveller and property owner, but at what point does a legitimate business relationship tilt towards "Agency" rather than "Introduction Service" - and that doesn't apply solely to AbnB of course.charles cawley wrote:
And there are agencies like AirBnB- it is an agency-
From an outside standpoint it all looks rather murky; from your inside view, can you shed a bit of light on how grey or otherwise the situation is? How far can a "listing site" legitimately (ethics are irrelevant of course) control the payment and booking process without having any legal responsibility when there's a problem?
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charles cawley
- Posts: 1205
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:53 pm
- Location: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Borders
An agent works on behalf of someone else. In effect they are employed by another organisation or individual to work on their behalf.
Agents often have bad attitudes.... usually behind closed doors. Instead of 'rental balance transfers', they often say they 'pay owners' when it is the owners who pay them. They frequently refer to cottages on their books as 'stock' as if they owned them instead of the owners.
AirBnB is an agency just like Holiday Lettings. A listing site is akin to a hoarding company. You pay to paste up your advertisement and that is as far as it goes. In this case, Owners Direct for example, does not work on your behalf engaging with guests. You pay to be able to put up your advertisement on a site they have provided and that is as far as it goes.
It can be confusing because booking fees are charged to guests in many cases. Here, there is a straight contract for use of the booking system between the business that owns the agency and guests that does not compromise the agent - principal relationship between owners and the agency.
When asked for an invoice by a guest we have to split it into two. One part is for the booking fee covered by our vat number and the other part is raised on behalf of the owner for the rental including any vat and their vat number, if applicable.
Yes, AirBnB is a part service Agency along with Holiday Lettings. This is the reason why, despite their massive size and plans to eradicate businesses such as ours, they are failing to do so.
Agents often have bad attitudes.... usually behind closed doors. Instead of 'rental balance transfers', they often say they 'pay owners' when it is the owners who pay them. They frequently refer to cottages on their books as 'stock' as if they owned them instead of the owners.
AirBnB is an agency just like Holiday Lettings. A listing site is akin to a hoarding company. You pay to paste up your advertisement and that is as far as it goes. In this case, Owners Direct for example, does not work on your behalf engaging with guests. You pay to be able to put up your advertisement on a site they have provided and that is as far as it goes.
It can be confusing because booking fees are charged to guests in many cases. Here, there is a straight contract for use of the booking system between the business that owns the agency and guests that does not compromise the agent - principal relationship between owners and the agency.
When asked for an invoice by a guest we have to split it into two. One part is for the booking fee covered by our vat number and the other part is raised on behalf of the owner for the rental including any vat and their vat number, if applicable.
Yes, AirBnB is a part service Agency along with Holiday Lettings. This is the reason why, despite their massive size and plans to eradicate businesses such as ours, they are failing to do so.
No web-site for now.
Advice about holiday letting
Advice about holiday letting
I have to agree that listing sites such as AB, HA, HL etc are just that - somewhere to advertise your property in a list of other properties.
All the "features" such as response rates, rankings and headline rates are just elements that enable the sites to control the booking process to their advantage - nothing more.
At the end of the day the contract is always between the owner of the property and the traveller making the reservation - the listing site has no part to play in this other than being the "dating agency".
Those sites that have a commission model way of working stipulate the cancellation terms to ensure that their control mecanisms are restricted in the way things can permutate. By limiting the number of different cancellation options they can keep things simple. Not many of these options actually benefit their customer, the owner, they tend to be more beneficial to the traveller - the sites true customers. Owners are merely providers of inventory or stock as Charles states. Personally, I cannot accept that their versions of cancellations are actually enforceable in law, even if I sign up to them by merely accepting a booking. My cancellation terms and conditions will always prevail purely by my insistance that they do - it's my business on my terms. I always select the stricterist option the site provides regardless of whether it's detrimental to my listing or not - I don't actually think that most travellers are interested in this aspect of a reservation at the booking stage.
So, Mrs Barkay welcome to the forum - I say go for it yourself, follow your independent streak and make it work. It will be very hard work, when something does go wrong and it will, work even harder to sort it out. You will soon gain experience and even more satisfaction in your achievements.
Oh, read LMH fervently and ask as many questions as you like.
All the "features" such as response rates, rankings and headline rates are just elements that enable the sites to control the booking process to their advantage - nothing more.
At the end of the day the contract is always between the owner of the property and the traveller making the reservation - the listing site has no part to play in this other than being the "dating agency".
Those sites that have a commission model way of working stipulate the cancellation terms to ensure that their control mecanisms are restricted in the way things can permutate. By limiting the number of different cancellation options they can keep things simple. Not many of these options actually benefit their customer, the owner, they tend to be more beneficial to the traveller - the sites true customers. Owners are merely providers of inventory or stock as Charles states. Personally, I cannot accept that their versions of cancellations are actually enforceable in law, even if I sign up to them by merely accepting a booking. My cancellation terms and conditions will always prevail purely by my insistance that they do - it's my business on my terms. I always select the stricterist option the site provides regardless of whether it's detrimental to my listing or not - I don't actually think that most travellers are interested in this aspect of a reservation at the booking stage.
So, Mrs Barkay welcome to the forum - I say go for it yourself, follow your independent streak and make it work. It will be very hard work, when something does go wrong and it will, work even harder to sort it out. You will soon gain experience and even more satisfaction in your achievements.
Oh, read LMH fervently and ask as many questions as you like.
"Write something, even if it's just a suicide note"
"There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise"
"As for my amnesia, I've had it as long as I can remember"
Real name: Steve
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"There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise"
"As for my amnesia, I've had it as long as I can remember"
Real name: Steve
Gender: Male
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charles cawley
- Posts: 1205
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:53 pm
- Location: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Borders
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charles cawley
- Posts: 1205
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:53 pm
- Location: Herefordshire, Shropshire, Borders
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SandyBeaches
- Posts: 1071
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 8:35 am
- Location: Norfolk Coast
Welcome to the forum - where are you in Norfolk? I have two holiday cottages in Winterton-on-Sea, one in Acle and I manage 5 others also in Winterton.
I started 6 years ago with a fairly big agent, but quickly realised I could do a better job myself. Maybe it was a poor choice of agent. Anyway, we listed with Owner's Direct, Holiday Lettings and Home Away. And some other smaller sites too. But it's hard to give a definitive answer as Home Away produced useless results for me, yet one of my friends has 3 cottages in the same village and it works brilliantly for her. Holiday Lettings worked well 6 years ago, then Owner's Direct was better, now Owner's Direct is dire and I am going to drop all my listings with them unless it improves.
Currently my own website is the biggest source of bookings. But, it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort.
I think you just have to evaluate the different options out there and make an educated guess as to which is going to work best for you. What did the previous owners do as it was a holiday let? Can you continue with that until you get more of a feel for things?
I started 6 years ago with a fairly big agent, but quickly realised I could do a better job myself. Maybe it was a poor choice of agent. Anyway, we listed with Owner's Direct, Holiday Lettings and Home Away. And some other smaller sites too. But it's hard to give a definitive answer as Home Away produced useless results for me, yet one of my friends has 3 cottages in the same village and it works brilliantly for her. Holiday Lettings worked well 6 years ago, then Owner's Direct was better, now Owner's Direct is dire and I am going to drop all my listings with them unless it improves.
Currently my own website is the biggest source of bookings. But, it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort.
I think you just have to evaluate the different options out there and make an educated guess as to which is going to work best for you. What did the previous owners do as it was a holiday let? Can you continue with that until you get more of a feel for things?
Hello and welcome from another Norfolk owner. I started with an agency to find my feet but went alone after a year. I've since bought a second property and also now manage one for another owner.
I can honestly say there is no right or wrong answer for how to go ahead with your business. Within Norfolk, a site that works well for one doesn't for another. Owners Direct is still working for me but as you can see not for Sandy Beaches. It's taken trial and error over the years and sites that worked when I started no longer bring results. I now have a good number of returning guests and bookings that come direct to my website, but that's the difference between being new to the business or several years down the road.
In your shoes, I'd want to continue for a while with the success that the previous owners had, whilst you try other routes to market it. If they are successful with good repeat bookings, why would you want to throw that success away just for the sake of change?
I can honestly say there is no right or wrong answer for how to go ahead with your business. Within Norfolk, a site that works well for one doesn't for another. Owners Direct is still working for me but as you can see not for Sandy Beaches. It's taken trial and error over the years and sites that worked when I started no longer bring results. I now have a good number of returning guests and bookings that come direct to my website, but that's the difference between being new to the business or several years down the road.
In your shoes, I'd want to continue for a while with the success that the previous owners had, whilst you try other routes to market it. If they are successful with good repeat bookings, why would you want to throw that success away just for the sake of change?