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UK In/Out referendum
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Jimbo



Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 3581
Location: Charente Maritime

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:25 am    Post subject: UK In/Out referendum Reply with quote

In my lifetime, I cannot remember a ‘democratic debate’ that has been so ugly, negative, poisonous and divisive as the current Remain/Leave referendum. Any chance of a reasoned discussion to consider the merits of staying/leaving has been submerged by mainstream politicians of both sides relying on the 'politics of fear' and by the leavers whipping up racist sentiments that wouldn’t have been out of place in Nazi Germany and that had previously been confined only to outlying fringe parties. And yesterday’s shocking murder of MP Jo Cox seems to be the logical result of this evil brew.

That so many people in Britain seem willing to put their trust and the future of their country into the hands of such despicable and self-interested political ‘leaders’ truly beggars belief.

Polly Toynbee:
When politicians from a mainstream party use immigration as their main weapon in a hotly fought campaign, they unleash something dark and hateful that in all countries always lurks not far beneath the surface.

… if the vote is out … around the world we will be seen as the island that cut itself off as a result of anti-foreigner feeling: that will identify us globally more than any other attribute. Our image, our reality, will change overnight.

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Moliere



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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Location: Magalas, Languedoc

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So very true, Jim. This campaign has evoked the darkest, nastiest roots among all sorts of people.
They call it democracy, but in actuality it's rule by the mob.

Mols
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Lets Go To Puglia



Joined: 14 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is such a big mess .... for a light hearted look try this article in the Guardian
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French Cricket



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3052
Location: French Pyrénées

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you both, Jimbo and Mols.

It's so painful to follow that I can hardly bear to do so. But I feel I have to as somehow it feels as though it, along with other world events, is shining a light on the shape of things to come on this planet. And that is very, very scary.

An uncharacteristically depressed Cricket Crying or Very sad x
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rosebud



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 491
Location: Steyning, West Sussex

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with all that has been said...
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casasantoestevo



Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 3793
Location: O Saviñao, Galicia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theseare the things which gets us all going:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0
Perhaps the most balanced view seen so far :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGOzhhOAF8
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greenbarn



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 5886
Location: The Westmorland Dales, Cumbria

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My limited view from within the UK is that it's impenetrable; in many ways I suspect the view from afar (not that far) may offer more clarity.

Beyond the hysteria lie the opinions (are there any facts?) as to the pros and cons of leaving/staying - and as yer average voter it's beyond my understanding, which I suspect applies to the great majority of the voting public who will decide a hugely important issue based on..... what? Our political leaders have failed dismally to explain the possible scenarios - why ignore attention grabbing headlines and hype for the sake of a "maybe this, maybe that...."

This appeared on my FB feed, and apologies if sharing it is somehow not acceptable, but I make no comment on it other than it made interesting reading.
Quote:
If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.


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casasantoestevo



Joined: 06 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to this referendum I now now more about the links between financial institutions from the IMF, Bilderberg, EU Council of Ministers, BofE, USA etc.
It is doubtful if the UK can swim against the tide of these giants.
And on the other side I also understand more about the way that the EU is organised and how laws are discussed/pushed through) and hardly changed.
I now have a better understanding on both sides of the argument.

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the EU laws that now affect our businesses and personal life. I would judge that most here would wish to choose to be without many of these regulations.

Here is an interesting article from the Irish press.
http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/brexit-will-force-us-to-take-a-stand-34809225.html
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French Cricket



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3052
Location: French Pyrénées

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What scares me most is what Polly Toynbee says in the first line of Jim's quote, in the original post. And this is why, in my 'view from afar'.

We've been gone from the UK for nearly 10 years now - I've been back three or four times, OH not at all. We watch French news and TV and largely read French newspapers, although I've never quite given up on The Guardian. As most of you know, until this year we offered dinner to guests two or three times a week, around our own table and with us.

A few years ago, we both started to become aware of an underlying (and usually unconscious) racism in some of the things our UK guests said around the dinner table. Bear in mind that our target market means we tend mostly to attract 40-plus professional couples, not DM readers, and you'll understand why we began to feel concerned at what was happening in our home country.

My concern now is that the surface has been scratched and the fear of difference that we all seem to carry somewhere deep down is being let out of the bag and legitimised. If you look at the rise of the far right in so many countries, France included, I don't see how you can't be terrified for the future.
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bornintheuk



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 416
Location: Southern Charente

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting article in The Independant
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eurosceptic-eu-referendum-qatar-globalisation-vote-remain-a7085221.html
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Rosie



Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 763
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just written this blog post:

Influence, Indoctrination and Murder
https://eco-gites.blogspot.fr/2016/06/influence-indoctrination-and-murder.html
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Jimbo



Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 3581
Location: Charente Maritime

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

French Cricket wrote:
A few years ago, we both started to become aware of an underlying (and usually unconscious) racism in some of the things our UK guests said around the dinner table.

My BIL lives in a small seaside town on the South Coast of England – has done for 50 years. He remembers a time when all his neighbours were ‘English’ and, when he went to get the Sunday papers, such was the friendly camaraderie of local people that he struggled to get home in time for his Sunday lunch. Then, he says, 20 years ago, it all started to change – ‘East Europeans’ moved in, house prices fell, crime and vandalism became rife and, eventually, he covered his back yard in netting to prevent his cat (he says) from being killed. Some immigration is fine, BIL says, but when your town starts to feel like another country, it’s time to stop.

BIL isn’t your average racist; in many ways he’s a kind and friendly man. But he’s so angry and embittered that his neighbourhood and his country have been subjected to mass unfettered immigration without the politicians even bothering to ask if it was OK. He’s not naïve enough to believe that the substitution of ‘one bunch of uncaring Tory Toffs for another’ will make any difference to his life, he has sympathy for people displaced by wars and he can see the dangers of Brexit. But he’s long past caring – he wants to lash out, cause some pain to those in charge, get noticed at long last – and a ‘leave’ vote gives him an opportunity that's unlikely to come again.

As a committed European for as long as I can remember, this referendum debate depresses me greatly. But if the vote does go to leave the EU next week, it may well be due to all those honourable people like my BIL who’ve worked, paid taxes and contributed to their communities for all their lives, but who’ve been patronised, remaindered, forgotten and exploited by the venal political ruling class and their fellow-travellers in the press.

And Pandora’s box will be open ...
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bornintheuk



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimbo, does your BiL also feel in a foreign country when he visits a hospital and is cared for by West Indian nurses whose parents were persuaded to come here during the 50's, by sons and daughters of Ugandan Asians who try and keep local shops going ? Or is it just Eastern Europeans who kill and eat cats ?
Some people have always been racist and will probably remain so.
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Moliere



Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Jimbo, whilst not wishing to belittle your BiL's unhappy experience, which has obviously affected him deeply, Poland and most other East European countries didn't join the EU until 2004, and Romania / Bulgaria not until 2007. Is he sure it was them, rather than perhaps non-EU citizens that were causing his problems 20 years ago?

Moliere
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bessie



Joined: 30 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This week I was served in Salisbury by a lady from Greece,a delivery driver from Poland deliver a parcel and the Portuguese vet helped save my cow.
All very nice people,I have no problem with them wishing to work here,I forgot the Spanish nurse at my hospital appointment and the doctor.
I will be voting leave not because I want to stop these people working in this country but because I am fed up of been ruled by unelected politicians unfairness in the system.M y thoughts are most of the trouble in the world is caused by politicians mendling .
Excuse words mistakes this iPad thing keeps changing words and I don't know how to stop it.


Last edited by bessie on Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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