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UK In/Out referendum
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pepsipuss



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: Bédar, Almeria

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PW in Polemi wrote:


Although British, and with my home and livelihood in Europe for the past 8 years, I didn't have a vote.



Just out of interest and as an aside to all the rhetoric, why did you think you did not have a vote, PW? Any British citizen living outside of UK in the EU could vote as long as they were on the electoral roll up to 15 years ago. We made it under the wire by just two months. Registration process was very simple, all done on line in a matter of minutes.
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PW in Polemi



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepsipuss wrote:
Any British citizen living outside of UK in the EU could vote as long as they were on the electoral roll up to 15 years ago.

As a Channel Islander, I've never been eligible to vote in UK elections so never been on the electoral roll in any voting district in UK.
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pepsipuss



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PW in Polemi wrote:
pepsipuss wrote:
Any British citizen living outside of UK in the EU could vote as long as they were on the electoral roll up to 15 years ago.

As a Channel Islander, I've never been eligible to vote in UK elections so never been on the electoral roll in any voting district in UK.


Ok now I understand!
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kevsboredagain



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 3209
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bessie wrote:
Yet again another comment ,I will never post on this forum again been called ( such peop!e) about says it all.


The sentence does not say you belong to such people. The sentence does not say you are racist. The sentence does not say you are stupid. Please read again, understand the grammatical construct and take your time before making such a response.

You say we are disrespectful for harping on about this topic and asking for reasons. Your decision will remove my right to live and work in the EU, which I've enjoyed from for nearly 30 years. Some of the joint UK/EU projects I worked on have benefited you directly. I find it equally disrespectful not to be given any justification or reason as to why you think those rights should now be taken away.

This thread has always been a debate on the topic started by Jimbo. If you are not willing to discuss anything then that's fine.

Perhaps a simply analogy will explain:
There's 100 people waiting for a bus and 2 buses arrive. One is Leave and one is Remain.

52 people jump onto the Leave bus comprising:
- 20 who think it's heading in the best direction (hopefully LMH Leavers who've thought carefully about it)
- 10 who think it's going to a land where there will be no foreigners whatsoever because they absolutely despise them
- 5 who think it will go to a land where we can control the number of foreigners and cherry pick all our deals with other countries
- 5 who think that by taking the bus it will get rid of Cameron who they despise (talked to a few who voted for this very reason)
- 10 who think that by taking that bus this will give 350 million cash instantly to the NHS every week with zero negative consequences
- and 2 who missed the bus in 1975 and have been waiting for 40 years for another one to come along

On the other bus, the remaining 48 jump on - mainly younger people, graduates, business owners etc. The type you'd expect to get on that bus.

How do you feel sitting on that bus? Do you feel like a majority? Does it make you proud of democracy?

Already the 10 who were promised £350 million for the NHS have been told, the moment the bus departed, that that planned stop was just a mistake. The 48 on the other bus have had their plans cancelled and been told they must take the same route as the other bus. The 10 xenophobes may find they don't actually get what they wanted once the bus does arrive at its destination. The 5 that wanted Cameron out find the replacement just as unpalatable and the 2 who missed the bus in 1975 are still fumbling in their pockets for their senior citizens bus pass, unaware the bus even left. Overall, you have one large group of very pissed off people. Happy road trip!

Assuming you are in the group of 20, the "such people" would be one of the others. Understand now?
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bornintheuk



Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 416
Location: Southern Charente

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev, that is the most accurate post I have read anywhere about the recent referendum result.
My 2 kids who are both working in the UK, having been raised in France from the ages of 2 and 4 yrs were in tears at the result.
They dont get to drive the bus ! Twisted Evil
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casasantoestevo



Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 3791
Location: O Saviñao, Galicia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorca we have refrained from pointing fingers. Sorry you have been lead down the path of taking to personal insults. If you cannot please read the rules.
Be nice! It is fine to attack an opinion but not the person expressing it. Some forums are spoiled by bickering among its users. Rude posts will be deleted.
I would ask some of you to maybe take time out to watch what has happened to the class of English who had nothing to loose in this vote as they had been left way way behind by sociality and by the Government.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeTp5qUGDeg
Those of you who wish to remain maybe read through the Wee Bleu Book from Scotland. http://www.scotlandineurope.eu/wee_bleu_book
The next website has some views on the Brexit.
https://www.opendemocracy.net.
For the exiters; Could this affect the UK? Certainly.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/16/why-italys-banking-crisis-will-shake-the-eurozone-to-its-core/
But it may go further than just Italy.
https://geopoliticalfutures.com/europes-expanding-bank-crisis/

The customer will be made to support collapsed banks. The EU introduced a law which was in place from January of this year.
http://thejanssenreport.net/your-excess-savings-are-on-the-hook-eu-bank-bail-in-directive-2016/

On this EU website you can read the 5 presidents report. Yes the famous 5 that the exiters do not like. In the light of the UK's referendum it makes even more an interesting read. This was published in 2015 and is putting forward ideas that would affect the UK if it were to stay,
https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/publications/five-presidents-report-completing-europes-economic-and-monetary-union_en


To those of you who are deeply depressed by this leave, can we please ask you to share a thought about the members on LMH who have a property in Turkey. God knows what they must be going through just now.
Next year will be bumpy for all of us, especially if you do not aim the staycations in which ever country you are biased in.
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Bunny



Joined: 16 Oct 2013
Posts: 3387
Location: South of England

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stopped joining in this thread long ago, but just to be clear, one thing I am definitely not, is ashamed.
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lorca



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 2360
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lorca wrote:
Of course your posts aren't pointless Jim

What is pointless however, is trying to continue to converse with someone (two?) who refuse/s to - or hasn't the intellectual capacity to - understand or care about what others are saying.

There comes a point when there is nothing to be gained by engaging with them further


Just to clarify – not once in this thread have I criticised the views of anyone else. What I have done, along with others, is try to explain my own

My comment was directed at one particular person (or persons, they sign themselves off with two forenames so it’s difficult to know who one is talking to at any point) – who has consistently attacked myself and others without making any effort at all to understand what we are saying,

Let me be very clear, when I say “understand” I do NOT mean agree.

As a result they have regularly misquoted and misinterpreted what has been said and have posed questions that have already been answered in full in earlier posts. So eventually I came to the conclusion that they were either too lazy to read the posts with care, being deliberately obtuse or they just didn’t have the ability to grasp what was being said. I’m sorry if that sounds rude – but I have found their attitude to myself and others patronising, insulting and completely lacking in respect.

Along with several others on this thread I have tried to explain that – although we may have personal issues that will arise about of Brexit, for us our main concerns are to do with the bigger picture. Some of us admire and share the values on which the EU is based, while fully acknowledging that things are far from perfect and in many cases these remain aspirational. These values are very important to us and form the basis of the sort of world we would have liked future generations to grow up in (whether or not we have children of our own). We are not asking anyone to agree with this position, just to understand and respect that we hold it.

Instead we are told that we are “wallowing in self pity” (how can concern for the future of our country be described as self pity?). When we explain that we feel European as well as British, and that this is important to us we are bluntly told we “are NOT Europeans” (this is a feeling not an opinion and we are entitled to feel it). We are told “get over it” and “move on” in the most patronising terms as if it were some football match that our team has lost and that we’ll forget all about once things have calmed down.

In my book this is not very "nice" at all.
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kevsboredagain



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 3209
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casasantoestevo wrote:

I would ask some of you to maybe take time out to watch what has happened to the class of English who had nothing to loose in this vote as they had been left way way behind by sociality and by the Government.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeTp5qUGDeg


I did and it confirmed what I already knew. A very large group of people who felt the need to blame their misfortune on something. A referendum gave the ideal opportunity to give the proverbial middle finger to those in power. Doesn't solve anything but made them feel better.

Then apparently immigration came up nearly every time for Leave supporters. Stop immigration and all our problems will go away. In fact the overall conclusion by many was that the big bad EU was the cause of all problems and ended on the note "when they don't get what they expected, who will they blame?"

casasantoestevo wrote:

Those of you who wish to remain maybe read through the Wee Bleu Book from Scotland. http://www.scotlandineurope.eu/wee_bleu_book


I also read that and had not seen it before but any Leave supporter will tell you it's merely propaganda and compiled by experts who know nothing. There were very few facts known by the public in this campaign and many simply refuse to learn more.

11% immigrants in the UK (of which only 4.6% are EU), 25% where in the country I live now. Immigrants here are part of the community and hardly noticed as most contribute and blend in well. The UK is clearly doing something wrong. Not the fault of the EU but the UK. That won't change by leaving the EU.
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casasantoestevo



Joined: 06 Nov 2006
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Location: O Saviñao, Galicia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lorca wrote:
Of course your posts aren't pointless Jim

What is pointless however, is trying to continue to converse with someone (two?) who refuse/s to - or hasn't the intellectual capacity to - understand or care about what others are saying.

There comes a point when there is nothing to be gained by engaging with them further


Lorca when you say what we (the two of us) which outline in red then the words underlined is aimed squarely at us. We are the only two that post covering one business. There is no way that has a double meaning.
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casasantoestevo



Joined: 06 Nov 2006
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Location: O Saviñao, Galicia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev, Having written those words do you not realise that maybe they have no compassion for the likes of us? to understand that. Having been out of work, knowing many of our friends out of work but living in the relatively prosperous south of England experience has shown life can be hard, thankfully managed to pull out of that. Still had to gulp at the man on benefits who had a horse in his back garden. How do they manage that? Shocked
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kevsboredagain



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 3209
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

casasantoestevo wrote:
Kev, Having written those words do you not realise that maybe they have no compassion for the likes of us? to understand that. Having been out of work, knowing many of our friends out of work but living in the relatively prosperous south of England experience has shown life can be hard, thankfully managed to pull out of that. Still had to gulp at the man on benefits who had a horse in his back garden. How do they manage that? Shocked


I've also been out of work long term so I well aware of what struggling to live feels like. I still have to do part time work for less than any minimum wage just to help pay the bills. I didn't blame it on anyone but myself.

I totally understand that these people would consider me as well off simply because I live abroad and totally out of touch with their way of life. I have many relatives just like that who strongly believe that their way of life is the fault of someone else.

If a employer has to hire an immigrant because he cannot find a UK citizen with the right skills then that is the fault of the UK system and blocking the path of immigrants won't solve it.

We have the same problem hiring people in the company I work for. We advertise locally first and even visit universities and colleges in an attempt to recruit locals. We simply can't get them so have no choice but to employ from outside the country. There are plenty of people in this country, who like the UK, want to stop this but care little about the affect on business.
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newtimber



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevsboredagain wrote:

If a employer has to hire an immigrant because he cannot find a UK citizen with the right skills then that is the fault of the UK system and blocking the path of immigrants won't solve it.




Rather than saying it is the fault of the UK, you could equally say that it is the fault of the countries that the migrants come from that there is not enough well paid work available in their own countries. The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU (Germany has less, and the same level of migration) and with freedom of movement, young people move to where the jobs are.http://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/
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kevsboredagain



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newtimber wrote:
kevsboredagain wrote:

If a employer has to hire an immigrant because he cannot find a UK citizen with the right skills then that is the fault of the UK system and blocking the path of immigrants won't solve it.




Rather than saying it is the fault of the UK, you could equally say that it is the fault of the countries that the migrants come from that there is not enough well paid work available in their own countries. The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU (Germany has less, and the same level of migration) and with freedom of movement, young people move to where the jobs are.http://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/


I'd agree with that too. So how do you solve that problem? Do you help them knowing that it is also helping yourself or do you turn you back and say not my problem? Do you not employ anyone at all for the vacancy you have?
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gozokerry



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 157
Location: Gozo,Malta

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While on the subject of employment our guests checked in yesterday and the guy works for a major aerospace company in the UK (5 Billion in sales, 30,000 employees worldwide).

Part of the guys job is to supply spare parts and the workers to fit them to the aircraft, wherever it is (for him Europe), quite straightforward currently. He is not looking forward turning the clock back and having to seek work permits for his employees for each and every job. There must be hundreds if not thousands of similar examples.

India Knight has a 'funny' article in the UK Sunday Time magazine about Brexit and the divide it has caused, we are not alone..
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