Illegal “colleagues”

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Cas & Irene
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Illegal “colleagues”

Post by Cas & Irene »

When we started our business in December 2012, we were at that moment the only B&B Boat in Port Forum
Now, 4 years later we have 6 new colleagues around us, but …. all illegal!

They are meanly old wooden boats (Viudes yachts, from the 70’s), which can be bought now very cheap, because two big engines with a hug consumption, makes sailing very unattractive
A tired (read: moist) wooden hull and an old fashion interior with relative small bunks and sanitary in the same style, makes these bargains complete!

Every time when a new one arrives on our pontoon, the owner comes to me and ask me if we can work together, and also if I can explain them how to set up the business (!).
I tell him that I would be very happy with a new colleague, who offers quality to his guests AND … want to do his business legal! (at least register himself and pay taxes etc!)

“We do only some AIRBNB” is the most common answer, “so no need for that”. After 5 minutes I stop explaining things, a waste of my time. Finally I tell them that I´m absolutely not happy with another illegal business next to me (I have now one next to me and two at the back!) and I´m not hesitate to mention this to the Mossos when they visit me (2x per year).
´
Last time when the Mossos visit me, about 2 months ago, to bring the “Safe Holiday¨ flyers, I mentioned this to him. He was very surprised and would give this info to his colleague. (Same as last year!) But nothing happened in the meantime.

As you understand, the “friendship” and good neighbour ship is quickly gone! Because they are all advertising on AIRBNB, they working now together and dividing the guests. The price of those self-catering boats/B&B`s are very low, and so attractive for young groups (hen- and stag parties etc) . But now we see also more and more families are coming.
The Marina respond very accurate, when there are complains about noise etc., but stays far away from any discussion about legal or illegal, they are happy with the mooring fees!

The last four years we visit many times the town hall, try to obtain a HUT number. But unfortunately they can´t give a HUT number for a boat (even a Spanish lawyer tried for us) , despite that we full fill our duties from the first day.
Every time when we visit them they, and also the Mossos tell us “don´t worry, you pay IVA, IRPF, Tourist tax and Social Sec. and send the guest info to the Mossos Registration, that’s fine” .

But I make myself a little bit worries, and mention in the meantime also a dip in the B&B bookings between the Self Catering bookings. Could be a coincidence, but …..?
I´m really looking forward to a good and serious colleague in the marina, so we can work together at the same level. At this time we got 6x more enquiries than we can book!

Anyone some experience with this kind of unfair competition, or some ideas how to deal with this?

(Please see also my topic “Back in “Town” in the members area )
Sail with the wind from today and count your blessings!
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St. Katharine B&B-Hotel Boat in Barcelona!
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Nemo
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Post by Nemo »

I cannot advise but only commiserate. We all have to deal with unfair competition, whether it's from a second home owner who merely wants a small amount to cover their bills and so sells a few peak weeks or cheaply all year round, or from neighbouring properties to mine, where one owner declared he would always be the cheapest on the park and went ahead undercutting everyone. Good luck to them. Hold your head high and keep doing what you're doing. Maybe karma will get them eventually. :wink:
Bunny
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Post by Bunny »

Nemo wrote:I cannot advise but only commiserate. We all have to deal with unfair competition, whether it's from a second home owner who merely wants a small amount to cover their bills and so sells a few peak weeks or cheaply all year round, or from neighbouring properties to mine, where one owner declared he would always be the cheapest on the park and went ahead undercutting everyone. Good luck to them. Hold your head high and keep doing what you're doing. Maybe karma will get them eventually. :wink:
+1 The problem is that Airbnb are making it so easy to operate illegally. All they have in their terms is an encouragement for hosts to check their local laws before listing. In the UK, there are masses of hosts offering rooms and including/serving food to their guests. So, effectively the hosts are offering B&B for which you need to register and be inspected by Environmental Health. I doubt that many of these hosts have even bothered to inform their insurers or declare the income. Unfortunately, I doubt the authorities have the manpower to deal with itl, but I wonder if the day will come when there will be a huge crack down on it all as it gets out of hand and more problems arise for the consumer.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Anyone some experience with this kind of unfair competition, or some ideas how to deal with this?
Unfortunately we owners are not the police. If the authorities do not wish to listen then give up and get on with the business.
This year the Xunta de Galicia announced they were hunting down illegal rents and tour guides. As far as we know nothing has happened. But when you are legal it is easy for them to do the inspections and controls. Thus ensuring you keep to their grand plan. :roll:
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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fincafern
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Post by fincafern »

We have been surrounded by "illegal colleagues" for the past ten years. I just get on with it and hope they all start paying taxes soon, with the new tourism laws now in place here.( Hope it may apply to your situation with boats soon too.)
Maybe that is why my bookings are up for next year, at last.
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cleanforum
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Post by cleanforum »

Many Websites now insist that you are registered with tourist number, perhaps this cannot apply to boats, anyway for land based property this should be the norm....if the listing sites were pressured a bit by the authorities..
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Ben McNevis
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Post by Ben McNevis »

I don't know who the Mossos are, but if they're anything like as scary as the Missus, your neighbours will be slapped into order in no time.

Seriously though, the maverick in me says there's regulation and there's regulation. It's probably about 80% sensible and 20% crazy - though being Spain, it could well be the other way round. And soggy hulls aside there are probably some petty regulations (or perhaps fear of breaching some little-known regulations) that makes these boat owners think that it's better to operate on the quiet.

So, I sympathise that your neighbours are lowering the tone of the surroundings. Even worse: their boats could be accidents waiting to happen.

I think that your best course of action is to engage more with the other owners and let them see the benefits of operating legally. If your profit margins are good despite paying taxes and complying with regs, then let them know how good it is and hope that they follow suit.
Cheers, Ben
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russellt
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Post by russellt »

I'd be inclined to advertise in the same places as your illegal 'friends', but set your prices higher to cover the taxes, etc which they are not paying, then proudly display your legal status.

Also, in your marketing messages/blog, raise the question of safety, insurance, risk, illegality, poor maintenance, smell, health, etc and any other FUD factors you can think of (FUD = fear, uncertainty, doubt). If you write articles for online media, make sure you think about keywords.

You may not win much business from those marketing channels, particularly from the stags & hens(do you really want that business??), but at least when enquirers are searching your location, they will see the difference - and who knows, maybe you will be educating them that the cheapest price is the cheapest for a reason.

Also, maybe contact a local newspaper to raise the profile of the issue of illegal lets in the marina? They usually enjoy embarrassing the local authorities into action.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

To those who do not live in Spain may I explain a few things.
The last four years we visit many times the town hall, try to obtain a HUT number. But unfortunately they can´t give a HUT number for a boat (even a Spanish lawyer tried for us) , despite that we full fill our duties from the first day.
Without a HUT number the Catalan authorities say you should not be trading. With the issuing of this number you are obliged to do several things. One is to add it to anywhere where you list your accommodation.
If you are not showing this number then It is amused you will be visited by the authorises to shut you down. The Mossos should not have mush to do with this visit.
Mossos are yet another police force found here in Spain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d%27Esquadra
There is enough publicity in newspapers about the authorities closing down illegals.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/09/01/ine ... 51764.html
http://www.thelocal.es/20160629/barcelo ... -to-600000
http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/barcel ... 97242.html
http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/barc ... ticia.html
A fine of 600000€ is presently being levied.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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kevsboredagain
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Post by kevsboredagain »

Just because you have a license number does not mean taxes are being paid or even income is being declared. It's simply a piece of paper with a number on it, obtainable without even so much as an inspection (at least it was for me)
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Sanchisimo
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Post by Sanchisimo »

I think I have said before that we are one of maybe 10 registered rentals out of possibly 60 in our town area. OD and the internet helped this in the beginning along with a lack of implementation of the regulations. We are legal, pay our taxes and sleep soundly at night.
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Cas & Irene
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Post by Cas & Irene »

Thanks for the advices!
If you are not showing this number then It is amused you will be visited by the authorises to shut you down. The Mossos should not have mush to do with this visit.
The Mossos d´Esquadra (Catalan Police) is responsible for the Hotel Register. I had a long chat with one of them, and they explained me that they, because of anti-terrorism regulations, are very keen on all accommodations that they send the guest details to them. I don´t know how far they (can) go with follow up the regulation or taking any actions agains illegals, but I´m very sure that they not selling ice creams here!

Yes, I’m busy now to make a perspex panel at the back of the boat with my name, phone, Social Security number, contact details, IVA-NIE number, reg. number of the Hotel Register and Tourism Tax code. We mention also this numbers, as far as possible in our ads and website.
Next to that we have, in the meantime built up a file with everything we tried to do this legal.

Of course is this not a carte blanche for us to go on without HUT number, but it’s better than nothing and only black income!

Al together, we hope the we are at least at the bottom of the list, as soon as they start making serious work of their laws!

Got recently some good news from Spain Holiday; “ … this might change in the future as apparently the Generalitat are working on regulation for "unique accommodation".”

Probably still a long way to go but …. there is (always) hope!!
:D

PS. Funny story, 2 years ago an Italian yacht started also with B&B on board. After a few months he got a visit from the Guardia Civil and they told him to apply for a hotel licence. The captain told the officer that he had no idea how to do that. The officer said to him, ”Go to the owner of the St. Katharine, he has one (???**) and he can help you!”.
Next morning, the captain came to me and asked for help. I gave him a blanc HUT application form and wished him good luck. They never filled in the form, to complicated he told me later.
The owner of the yacht went bankrupt in Italy and “sold” the yacht to a few cowboys. They start up the business again, accept bookings, payments but the boat was closed many times. People are waiting for hours, but nobody showed up, one big mess!
Guardia Civil came again and finally they had 3 day lo leave the marina!

**Maybe because we got in big letters “www.HotelBoatBarcelona.com” at the front of they boat, I have no idea but keep my fingers crossed!
Sail with the wind from today and count your blessings!
http://www.Bed-and-Breakfast-Barcelona.com
St. Katharine B&B-Hotel Boat in Barcelona!
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Now the illegals are starting to be shut down.
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20160810/ay ... 4303.shtml
They are asking for help from residence of the city too.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
costa-brava
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Post by costa-brava »

Hi Cas&Irene
I haven't chipped in to the "crac" for a while but I am totally with you on this one.
There is one point that may be relevant. The Director of the Port, back in 2014, stated that lots of these boats carry a recreational registration number. As such they cannot be used in any form of commercial activity. The registration of these vessels starts with a "7"
I have seen in the details of your boat that it was registered as a commercial vessel (I think for ferrying goods to the navy or something like that). And your number does not start with a seven.
However, from what I understand of how the law is here, you cannot offer B&B unless you are a registered lodging establishment. I know you are declaring everything etc but if you take it down to the wire I have a feeling that all boats that offer static B&B type accommodation are operating illegally.
What you describe is dishonest, unfair competition while you have done everything in your power to be legal but I have a niggling doubt about the actual legality of anybody doing B&B on a boat.
To conduct any commercial business you need to have a "licencia de obertura" from the city hall. Private holiday rentals are covered by separate laws but as far as I know B&B is only possible in the city and town in a registered hotel or pension or in a "casa rural" in the small villages. The Catalan government had a draft law which passed the reading stage last September which would have opened the door for more B&B but there was a hung parliament and this new legislation now appears to have been dropped.
If I am wrong about this you have three very strong bodies that should be able to take action against your competitors.
The Director of the Port; the fiscal department of the city hall; the Agencia Catalana de Turisme.
The police are unlikely to take any effective action.
Hope you win!
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Cas & Irene
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Post by Cas & Irene »

Thanks again,
I have spoken with the most of them, they are absolutely not interested to do their business legal. Most excuses are, ” My boat has a UK flag and I have a limited company in the UK, so don´t have to pay any taxes here”, “I´m only on Airbnb, so I have not a business”, “I will do this only for a short period, till the boat is sold”.
It´s a waste of my time and I stopped with that. Not one of theme have the intention to build up a serious business.

Our boat is registered in The Netherlands and there is not a classification registration like in Spain. This called “Schepen Kadaster” and we are registered there as non- commercial Sea going ship (non-commercial means no Merchandise Ship or Charter).
Since a few years there is in Holland a pleasure craft register for non-resident yachts. (max length is 24 metre.)
Most of the B&B/S-C boats in Port Forum have now the “Dutch Flag Registration” to avoid any problems with the Spanish registration.

When you look on Airbnb, you find, approx. 120 motor/sailing yacht for rent in Port Olympic.
I´m very sure that 99,9% of all these boats are not registered or pay any taxes or whatever. They are there already for a few years and despite that Port Olympic is in the City of Barcelona, never have been any action from the authorities there. (We are officially moored in Sant Adria de Besos)

Maybe it have no priority, they shut down first the apartments? Maybe they can´t not make a political statement with boats, maybe there are no complaints from neighbourhood’s, like the big problems in BCN City? I really have no idea.

We have now decided to wait how thing developing, follow the news about a changes of rules and try do things as legal as possible.
Maybe is better to leave the box of Pandora closed!
Sail with the wind from today and count your blessings!
http://www.Bed-and-Breakfast-Barcelona.com
St. Katharine B&B-Hotel Boat in Barcelona!
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