Holiday Homes in Hell (British TV programme)

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brenda
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Post by brenda »

Me too Pepsi!
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pepsipuss
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Post by pepsipuss »

Thank you, Brenda and Lorca. She says in her request that everyone will get a response so it if there are a lot of voices asking for the other side to be put it will be quite difficult for her to ignore.
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Post by Mouse »

I'll do it too...I think these programmes have a duty to educate. It also gives a much more balanced approach.

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Vera
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Post by Vera »

pepsipuss wrote: These programmes are water off a duck's back for the authorities and the greedy developers who caused the problems - if they aren't moved by pressure from the European ministers then a programme on UK TV is going to make not one jot of difference to them. On the other hand the programmes DO impact on the decision-making processes of people who might otherwise have chosen to buy here, thus making the market even more feeble and threatening every aspect of the already badly stretched local economy. The ramifications of the plummeting property market are felt by the ordinary people here in terms of a disastrous level of unemployment and failing businesses, from the humblest bar to the poshest furniture supplier.
..and this is the reason the programmes will help. The local people need to realise that the problems that they are facing is due to the withdrawal of the spending of north Europeans. Property purchases which have stopped or people not buying a new kitchen because their Villa may be a pile of rubble next week is down to their elected mayor who in almost every town and village is corrupt to some degree or other. They may not see the programme but the word is spreading and you can be sure that the national and local press will see copies of it. Whether they choose to publish it will be down to which side of the corruption fence their paper or TV station is fed from.

Our friends, the Priors, had a 100% legal Villa which was deemed illegal because the local mayor ignored an instruction from the regional authority not to grant a building license a year after the license had been issued and the Priors had moved in. All the paperwork was legal,according to their solicitor, they had Electricity and Water supplies they were granted permission to build a utility room and to build a new roof on their garage. Now 3 years after their beautiful home and it's their only home, was demolished they live in these 2 buildings with utilities supplied by a kind neighbour via an extension lead and a hosepipe. A bathroom made from a tin hut has been upgraded, without planning permission, to be housed in a scraped campervan. Three years of retirement has been wasted on stress and poor health along with £50,000 in legal costs trying to right the dreadful situation.

There are an estimated 12,000 illegal builds in this area and we know hundreds of people living without basic utilities, others faced with horrendous bills and the possible loss of land or property due to the bizarre land grab laws of Valencia which are also evident in Almeria. Spanish friends of our bought a plot of waste land because it was home to tortoises and other wildlife, it was urbanised without their knowledge and now a developer has presented them with a bill of 18,000 euros because it is part of his new urbanisation, they can't afford it so will lose the land, it's 2010 in a civilised country how can these things be right.
A local mayor when questioned on TV about an urbanisation that had sprawled into a planned 13,000 homes commented that he wasn't aware of it because he rarely left town on that road
I agree these programmes present the worst kind of biased journalism but if they stop one more person making the mistake of buying an illegal property in Spain or Cyprus or Bulgaria then that's good as far as I am concerned.
We used to make a lot of our winter income through people coming out to buy property or on visits to see how their new build was or wasn't progressing and we would love this business to return but not at the expense of ruining some poor souls life.

If you want to see the other side of the coin watch "A place in the sun" where I saw Amanda Lamb tell some other Lambs heading for financial ruin "The owner doesn't have all the paperwork for the property but that's quite normal for a Spanish rural property"
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Post by pepsipuss »

I would not want to suggest that such programmes should not be made, and I agree with Vera that if they save one person from disaster then that is a very good thing.

My point was that there has to be a balance, not just because putting the worst case scenario is having a disastrous effect on tens of thousands of ordinary (mainly Spanish) people as the (largely property-based) economy goes into meltdown, but because it CAN be done safely and there are almost certainly many potential purchasers who otherwise would be helping to mitigate this situation, who are being put off by these programmes.

A great deal has been learned as a result of the Priors' case: not least that 'buyer beware' means going to the top of the chain to find out what rules are going to be applied to your build. The Priors acted perfectly reasonably and prudently in following the advice of their solicitor and the local mayor - in UK this would certainly be enough to guarantee that your house was legal. However it has long been the case here that some local mayors have taken a very 'independent' view of the legislation and have been granting permissions which according to Provincial and/or Regional legislation they should not have done. In the past this has never been a problem because the regional authorities have chosen not to challenge these permissions. The fact remains that the legislation was there and could be enforced at any time. When we sought permission to build on rustic land as far back as 2000, our architect told us that we had to have permission from the Diputación de Almería and he would not do it any other way. Indeed we briefed a second architect for a house to be built on another part of our plot (first architect very competent but seriously slow) and he gave us the same advice.

The Priors were VERY, VERY unfortunate in their advisors at every level. That does not mean that buying in any part of Spain has to end in disaster. What it DOES mean is that you need the right people advising you. We too have had B&B guests looking for property and the number has dwindled significantly. Staying in B&B with people who know the score locally, know the architects, solicitors and estate agents who can be trusted, is a really good way to start a property search and we have helped many people in this way. Coming over on a 'freebie' with a developer is not necessarily a recipe for disaster (although there are plenty of examples of those) but in many cases a recipe for disappointment as they will only show their customers what they have to sell themselves, which may not be anything as desirable or such good value as if you do it independently. Buying a house or a piece of land as a result of a conversation in a bar is equally not to be encouraged but it is amazing how many people do it.

So all I want of the programme-makers is that they should use the opportunity of telling the story of the bad cases to educate people on how to do it safely, and to communicate that, horrendous as the situation is for the minority, there are nonetheless several hundreds of thousands more who HAVE managed, by luck or judgement, to acquire legal properties.

I would like to feel that it will indeed have some impact on the authorities, but that would go against all the current evidence to the contrary which shows that those who are in a position to right these wrongs remain steadfastly unmoved, hiding behind the letter of the law.
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Post by lorca »

Vera – I endorse everything Pepsi has said and just want to add a few points from our own experience

You are quite right that there are many people who have had serious problems and have been ripped off by unscrupulous developers and in some cases corrupt local authorities. Many of these people have acted in good faith, employed local solicitors and done everything they could to ensure everything was legal. It is also true that there are and have been some unscrupulous developers (Spanish, British and others) and some corrupt alcaldes that have taken advantage. The land grab laws in Valencia are obviously horribly unfair – and these affect Spanish just as much as expat owners. The victims deserve full support from us, their own and the Spanish governments
However, I do believe that the following are also true....

The vast majority of expatriates who have bought properties in Spain have had good experiences and are very happy with the properties they have bought

There are a large number of expats who wanted to buy as cheaply as possibly in Spain and have ignored advice to do what they would have done automatically in the UK - ie employed their own solicitor to act in their own interests (and not either done without one altogether or used one that also represented the seller). Many of these people hope to enjoy a much better lifestyle than they could enjoy in the UK, and generally a much better lifestyle than is enjoyed by their Spanish neighbours. Many have no interest in local culture or learning the language and complain loudly when they cannot be understood by healthcare workers or other officials. The majority of my Spanish neighbours dream of a “new kitchen”. In fact many of the young people would rather live in a flat in the nearby town - which they can no longer afford because the building industry has collapsed. The unemployment level here is one of the highest in Europe. They survive on local agriculture (harvesting grapes on almost vertical slopes) and the odd job on the black market (there is very little unemployment benefit here). There are a few who have made money out of incomers –but most may be forgiven for having little sympathy with foreigners who have to live on a reduced pension income (because of the drop in the pound against the euro) when this is still much more than they have to support their family.

Many of the corrupt developers and agents here are in fact based in the UK – they are very happy to rip off their compatriots whether it´s timeshare or buying in new developments. It is interesting that Sean Connery is being investigated for a multimillion property scam in Marbella – he claimed last week that he and his wife were too old to travel here for the required court appearance

While there are some corrupt alcaldes, this has to be viewed in perspective. Some have made a great deal from backhanders, but in many cases, this has been more to do with turning a blind eye when their neighbours want to build something rather than corruption for financial gain – wrong, but just local culture. In Andalucia each local authority is being investigated by the Junta, including regular surveyance flights over the campo which are checked against local deeds. All infringements are being investigated and when necessary prosecuted. No planning permission is now granted without the OK from the Junta.

Most older village and campo properties do not have “paperwork” –this is because they have been handed down through families for generations and have had no need of them. When we bought our village properties our solicitor made sure that the cost of registering official escaturas were included. There is nothing corrupt about this and it´s easy to sort out if you´re prepared to pay for a decent local solicitor.

TV companies are generally only interested in people with problems – this is good TV. They are not interested in providing a complete picture. The problems experienced by those affected are indeed horrendous – but while everything should be done to support them, it is not the experience of the majority.
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Post by Vera »

I've just spoken with the Priors and they have lost their High Court case in Madrid to have their building license reinstated.
The Junta contested that the building of their Villa created an "Urban nucleus"

The local paper, Costa Almeria News has also confirmed what we have know for about 6 weeks that a plot 500 metres from the Priors has been given permission for a 5 bedroom villa to be built. I don't know if it has local or regional approval at this time.
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Post by Topcat »

Oh Vera, my heart goes out to the poor Priors. I had thought there was going to be good news there.

And where is the planning logic in this?

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Post by Giddy Goat »

The injustice makes me speechless, it's a truly dreadful situation and it seems that the Priors, and others similarly affected, will never get redress. I don't know how the authorities responsible can sleep at night.
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Post by lorca »

That´s completely crazy and truly terrible for them. Is that the end of the line or can they appeal?
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Post by pepsipuss »

Oh that is AWFUL, Vera. Our hearts go out to the Priors yet again.

I have not seen the CAN yet this week. The granting of that licence for the other plot is complete nonsense. Is anyone going to denounce the authorities for it?
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Post by Vera »

Vera wrote:I've just spoken with the Priors and they have lost their High Court case in Madrid to have their building license reinstated.
The Junta contested that the building of their Villa created an "Urban nucleus"

The local paper, Costa Almeria News has also confirmed what we have know for about 6 weeks that a plot 500 metres from the Priors has been given permission for a 5 bedroom villa to be built. I don't know if it has local or regional approval at this time.
I need to correct some of the above which is slightly incorrect.

Vera lost their case against the regional Junta. The Junta were found to be correct in ordering Vera to annul the building license.
The town hall had ignored this which resulted in the Villa being built and the Priors living there for a number of years in ignorance of the situation.
The Priors are now unlikely to get the license reinstated which is what they hoped for and will now have to fight to get compensation from Vera town hall.

This obviously is a serious problem for other houses with local licences or without licenses.

The news of planning for the new Villa is NOT confirmed by the local paper.
Len was upset and a little confused when I spoke with him on Saturday
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Post by Vera »

I know from last weeks replies that the general opinion is that we should pretend that most people are happy with their lot here in the sun but our local AUAN property abuse organisation reports....

In his report the Prosecutor outlines a crime involving the construction of 300 houses between the months of April and October 2005 on 'suelo no urbanizable', without a building license, with 1,794 planned for the first phase in the area know as Llanos de Jordana, Cuevas del Almanzora....... The prosecutor seeks one year in prison, fines and disqualification for those accused as well as the demolition of the properties at the expense of those persons and entities convicted......

The case is being heard in Penal Court Number 1 in Almeria (Procedimiento Abreviado 248/09 )

and a respected local blog

http://www.theentertaineronline.com/news.php
reports under the headings

More Bad News for Len and Helen Prior and
More Property Problems. The Almanzora Country Club
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Post by lorca »

Vera wrote:I know from last weeks replies that the general opinion is that we should pretend* that most people are happy with their lot here in the sun
*my emphasis

Vera - I think it´s probably inappropriate to get into a debate about this, as what´s happening to these people is truly terrible. But because of the reasons mentioned above I do think it´s important to put this in perspective (not least because an overemphasis on the problems is making it much harder for those who would like to return to their home countries to sell their properties).

Earlier this year the official figures for the number of UK nationals registered as living in Spain was 356,000 (there are probably many more who haven´t registered with their ayuntamiento). Many more from other EU countries (approx 3 million in total). There is not reason to suppose that most of these people are not happy living here.

Once again, my heart goes out to the Priors and the many others similarly affected
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Post by pepsipuss »

Vera wrote:I know from last weeks replies that the general opinion is that we should pretend that most people are happy with their lot here in the sun but our local AUAN property abuse organisation reports....
Vera, I really don't think anyone replying has demonstrated themselves to be anything other than totally sympathetic to the plight of the Priors and others.

However, if we are talking about expats who have chosen to buy here, we do not need to 'pretend' that those who are suffering are a minority and that MOST people are indeed happy with their personal situation because this is the reality. That does not mean that they are happy to live within a system where no-one feels completely safe. Generally, quite apart from the heartfelt sympathy they feel for those affected, most people are conscious that 'there but for the grace of God go we'.

We have experienced the awful anxiety and uncertainty that goes with an investigation from the Environmental Police of the legitimacy of building permits, not just once but twice on the same property. It happened once while our build was in progress and again a year after we moved in. No one came back on the first occasion to reassure us that we had passed whatever tests they were applying, and when the second one happened and we asked 'why again?' we were told they were a different arm of the same organisation. Having once had the experience of 'no news' we enquired 'how do we know we have passed this time?'. This was in the spring, and the answer was that 'it looks alright but we have to send it up the chain and if you do not hear anything by the summer holidays then it is probably ok'. That was two years ago, but who knows, we may yet have them banging on the door yet again.

The point that I was trying to make (and which others supported) was that these programmes do not have a track record of making any difference where it matters. What they do is to aggravate a situation which for ordinary Spanish people who have no work and indeed for expats needing to sell their homes to return to UK because of illness or bereavement, is already very bad indeed. I don't think the local Spanish media need any educating on the subject as I have read plenty which indicates that they know exactly where the blame lies and they are supportive of the victims - another programme of the same kind is not going to make them any more supportive than they already are. What it might conceivably do is to make them wonder if any of the foreigners have noticed how the local people are suffering.

I am not sure that I see much difference between the programme makers who are interested only in using the most sensational cases to boost their ratings (which is of course a monetary issue at the end of the day) and the greedy developers, corrupt politicians and naive (or incompetent) intermediaries (architects and solicitors) who did not fulfil their responsibilities in a diligent manner, thereby causing the problems in the first place. A more low-key programme on 'how to buy safely', perhaps with examples of things to avoid, would be a lot more helpful but of course would not get anything like the coverage.

edit: was composing while Lorca posted above - sorry if I am repeating what she said.
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