UK In/Out referendum

Come for a relaxed chat about anything at all and meet your fellow rental owners.
newtimber
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 pm
Location: Brighton
Contact:

Post by newtimber »

kevsboredagain wrote:
newtimber wrote: Rather than saying it is the fault of the UK, you could equally say that it is the fault of the countries that the migrants come from that there is not enough well paid work available in their own countries. The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the EU (Germany has less, and the same level of migration) and with freedom of movement, young people move to where the jobs are.http://www.statista.com/statistics/2688 ... countries/
I'd agree with that too. So how do you solve that problem? Do you help them knowing that it is also helping yourself or do you turn you back and say not my problem? Do you not employ anyone at all for the vacancy you have?
Of course we want to fill the vacancies. The question is really whether we should have a policy that discriminates against people who come from countries that are not in the EU. That depends on your view of whether the UK is more like Romania or more like New Zealand/Australia/US and Canada.
Because of the shared language and US films,tech etc, I think that a significant number of UK people would feel they have more in common with the the latter despite them being on a different continent. Other europeans having a different history and language would have a different view.
gozokerry
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:55 am
Location: Gozo,Malta

Post by gozokerry »

newtimber wrote: ... more like New Zealand/Australia/US and Canada. Because of the shared language and US films,tech etc, I think that a significant number of UK people would feel they have more in common with the the latter despite them being on a different continent. Other europeans having a different history and language would have a different view.
While people may think that a common language=common culture, the reality is quite different. I would suggest we (UK) have much more in common with the rest of Europe than the newer countries you mention. There are huge cultural differences.
Kerry

As Hamlet said ;-"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
User avatar
kevsboredagain
Posts: 3207
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:32 am
Location: France
Contact:

Post by kevsboredagain »

gozokerry wrote:
newtimber wrote: ... more like New Zealand/Australia/US and Canada. Because of the shared language and US films,tech etc, I think that a significant number of UK people would feel they have more in common with the the latter despite them being on a different continent. Other europeans having a different history and language would have a different view.
While people may think that a common language=common culture, the reality is quite different. I would suggest we (UK) have much more in common with the rest of Europe than the newer countries you mention. There are huge cultural differences.
Having spent a large amount of time is the USA, I would agree with that. I've tried unsuccessfully to get work in the USA. They have 600 million population so not really much of a skills shortage there. The other English speaking countries also have their own problems with skills shortages so what would be gained by allowing them to easily work in the UK? I doubt there would be much demand there. They are in need of immigrants too to fill the gaps.

Somehow I can't imagine anyone from those countries wanting to spend £1000 on a flight to come and pick strawberries. If there were no vacancies, they wouldn't bother coming. An EU citizen has to either already have a job lined up or find work within 3 months or out.

Funnily enough I know a Brit who has fallen foul of that rule but has decided to go work in Poland instead of returning to the UK.
lorca
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm
Location: The Axarquia, Spain

Post by lorca »

gozokerry wrote:
newtimber wrote: ... more like New Zealand/Australia/US and Canada. Because of the shared language and US films,tech etc, I think that a significant number of UK people would feel they have more in common with the the latter despite them being on a different continent. Other europeans having a different history and language would have a different view.
While people may think that a common language=common culture, the reality is quite different. I would suggest we (UK) have much more in common with the rest of Europe than the newer countries you mention. There are huge cultural differences.
+ 1

Been talking to a friend who's just come back from 3 year secondment in Australia who said just that. One of her main impressions was how un-European and alien it felt - from attitudes and assumptions to the feel of the cities.
If not now, when?
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

kevsboredagain wrote:
I've also been out of work long term so I well aware of what struggling to live feels like. I still have to do part time work for less than any minimum wage just to help pay the bills. I didn't blame it on anyone but myself.

I totally understand that these people would consider me as well off simply because I live abroad and totally out of touch with their way of life. I have many relatives just like that who strongly believe that their way of life is the fault of someone else.

If a employer has to hire an immigrant because he cannot find a UK citizen with the right skills then that is the fault of the UK system and blocking the path of immigrants won't solve it.

We have the same problem hiring people in the company I work for. We advertise locally first and even visit universities and colleges in an attempt to recruit locals. We simply can't get them so have no choice but to employ from outside the country. There are plenty of people in this country, who like the UK, want to stop this but care little about the affect on business.
The UK problems in education has been going wrong for many many years. Changes to the curriculum, the certificates, some would say the dummying down of the exams so that schools can obtain higher pass rates. The ending of apprenticeships. The way companies do not invest in education these days either. The demoralisation of teachers. The unruly way kids are said to behave. Yes that is one of the good old things from the past that needs to come back.
Another thing is every parent is encouraged to make their children obtain as higher level of education as possible. Even if that is in subjects that have with little use in the real world.
In addition to the pressures of getting good exam results. It is said you can reach your dreams today and a luck few do. These lucky few are held up as an example for everyone to aspire too. Getting a real good break in life is not going to happen very often.
TV programmes like a Place in the Sun, Wanted Down Under, Location, Location, Location, Houses under the Hammer, Grand designs: Even Corry has gone up market! all add to this message of the obtainable inspirational life. There are too many people for all to have this. And if they did where would you get the working trades men from?

Those of us on LMH have had a far better opportunity to improve their lives than most.

To correct these (above)"mistakes" a big change to society must happen. How long, when and via whom are not questions for which we personally have answers to.

Oh (to get a balance view) for those of us who have a better life they serve us up the likes of Life on Benefits, Benefits Britain: Life On The Dole etc for us to supposedly look down on theses so called scroungers.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
Ecosse
Posts: 812
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 10:40 pm
Location: Saint Gervais les Bains, France
Contact:

Post by Ecosse »

casasantoestevo wrote: The UK problems in education has been going wrong for many many years. Changes to the curriculum, the certificates, some would say the dummying down of the exams so that schools can obtain higher pass rates. The ending of apprenticeships. The way companies do not invest in education these days either. The demoralisation of teachers. The unruly way kids are said to behave. Yes that is one of the good old things from the past that needs to come back.
Another thing is every parent is encouraged to make their children obtain as higher level of education as possible. Even if that is in subjects that have with little use in the real world.
In addition to the pressures of getting good exam results. It is said you can reach your dreams today and a luck few do. These lucky few are held up as an example for everyone to aspire too. Getting a real good break in life is not going to happen very often.


To correct these (above)"mistakes" a big change to society must happen.
Agree with you... the praise culture in particular in schools has gone too far and it's not helping anyone. My cousin posted the following on Facebook this week, along with a photo her kid proudly holding up a medal: #feelingproud 'Axxx' s medal for not doing anything at sports day.' In a comment below, she revealed that her 5yo wouldn't join in and that all the kids got medals. So the school just taught these kids that you get rewarded in life for not participating or putting in any effort... and my cousin reinforced this by heaping praise on to her.

How is this good? No wonder they're disillusioned when they leave school and are looking to blame someone for the things they're lacking. They've been taught all their lives that they are exceptional, everything they produced is marvellous and there's a bright future ahead, etc. when in reality, they've not been given the tools to be successful (and I don't mean academically) in life.
newtimber
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 pm
Location: Brighton
Contact:

Post by newtimber »

gozokerry wrote:
newtimber wrote: ... more like New Zealand/Australia/US and Canada. Because of the shared language and US films,tech etc, I think that a significant number of UK people would feel they have more in common with the the latter despite them being on a different continent. Other europeans having a different history and language would have a different view.
While people may think that a common language=common culture, the reality is quite different. I would suggest we (UK) have much more in common with the rest of Europe than the newer countries you mention. There are huge cultural differences.
I perhaps should have bolded the words "would feel" in my post. Everyone's experiences are different. In my case, I know more people who have lived and worked outside the EU than inside the EU. I expect that most people's experiences of other countries are related to holidays, the internet and TV. French worker relations with management would seem completely alien to most people in the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... sses-paris
User avatar
CSE
Posts: 4414
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:34 pm
Location: Galicia

Post by CSE »

New Timber, your point is a good one in this debate. Europe is not one country. Every country, thankfully, has different ideas, laws and customs.
Somehow those five presidents that have published the report linked to above seem to lack that knowledge. That is scary.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
gozokerry
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:55 am
Location: Gozo,Malta

Post by gozokerry »

Yes I agree Newtimber, maybe I should have bolded 'may think' :)

Having lived and worked in many countries around the world, I know that after the honeymoon period, it is not the big issue items that irritate, it is the multitude of small daily issues that may eventually trigger departure from that country.

I still believe that coming from European stock, despite language differences we have more in common with each other than say America and Australia.
Kerry

As Hamlet said ;-"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
User avatar
cleanforum
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:55 am

Post by cleanforum »

Just had my 20 year old nephew to stay. Inteligent chappie A levels in this and that. He voted Brexit, so he could "go and work as a lifeguard in Australia and other Dominions" where he can ear 80AU$ a year....

My god the youth of today. When I was 27 I was married to a girl from Vancouver and also had a residents VISA for Aus. I know what the realities are for both those countires and chose Europe no comparison in terms of culture and oportunities...then anyway.
User avatar
kevsboredagain
Posts: 3207
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:32 am
Location: France
Contact:

Post by kevsboredagain »

casasantoestevo wrote:New Timber, your point is a good one in this debate. Europe is not one country. Every country, thankfully, has different ideas, laws and customs.
Somehow those five presidents that have published the report linked to above seem to lack that knowledge. That is scary.
It's just like a family. Each member is a unique person with their own personality. They live mostly independent lives but are still stronger as a family unit. They will live longer on average by sticking together and helping each other. Occasionally they will have to compromise a little for the good of others they live with. Such is life.

Most of the laws in the EU have been made to try and help strengthen all countries as a whole, not to dominate them. Many of the seemingly petty rules on manufacturing for example are made so that we can trade, without restriction with our neighbours. Remove those standards and everything has to be painstakingly negotiated.

We can trade with anyone with no problem claim the Leavers. Not so easy sometimes. Other countries can simply refuse to buy our goods if they don't agree with our standards. Ever seen a Kinder Egg in the USA? Nope because they are not allowed to be sold. I can buy and use a motorcycle helmet anywhere in the EU and use it in any country in the EU. Buy one in the USA and you cannot use it in the EU and vise versa. These common rules, although often a pain, save a heck of a lot of money and red tape. They don't make them just to piss people off.

Companies that depends heavily on EU trade will simply relocate outside the UK. Already many are planning this, especially in banking.

In one of the links you gave, I noticed it said the cost per head of the EU was £116 but the calculated benefits were over £1000. Yes but we have give that £116 to the NHS if we leave the EU :roll:
gozokerry
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:55 am
Location: Gozo,Malta

Post by gozokerry »

Exchanged a couple of texts with a friend recently, the author of this article, interesting reading for those of us outside the UK.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/134732321/Ma ... orbes-1992
Kerry

As Hamlet said ;-"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
newtimber
Posts: 1945
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 pm
Location: Brighton
Contact:

Post by newtimber »

kevsboredagain wrote:
casasantoestevo wrote:New Timber, your point is a good one in this debate. Europe is not one country. Every country, thankfully, has different ideas, laws and customs.
Somehow those five presidents that have published the report linked to above seem to lack that knowledge. That is scary.
It's just like a family. Each member is a unique person with their own personality. They live mostly independent lives but are still stronger as a family unit. They will live longer on average by sticking together and helping each other. Occasionally they will have to compromise a little for the good of others they live with. Such is life.
I don't this is a good analogy at all. Dysfunctional families can cause a lot of harm.

Isn't the aim of a parent is to bring up their children so they can become independent, reach their full potential, leave home and make their own way in the world? The family unit is then there as a support and refuge when things go wrong.
Post Reply