Spa's jacuzzi etc

For anything to do with the garden and pool
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Spa's jacuzzi etc

Post by teapot »

Following on from the pool information will be spa information. This is part of the EU overhaul of pools and spas and I will report more news when I have it. So far it is mainly the HSG 282 document guidelines that the industry are looking at.

In layman's terms, Spas for any kind of public use, will require testing for legionella is likely to be mandatory at least quarterly. regular chemical testing and recording of results is likely to also be on the cards along with cleaning regime of the spa. Dip strips will not be a suitable test it will be as the regulations are for pools a DPD test. the complicated pipework on a spa will need to be removable for full cleaning so it is likely that the domestic spas will not be usable for for any type of commercial setup.

Just to warn anyone thinking of purchasing a new one. Please don't shoot the messenger and I will update the info as time goes on. the full changes were due this month but have now been put off until September.
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
peter_964rs
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by peter_964rs »

Hi, do you have any update on this?

I'm about to buy three tubs to complement three shepherd's huts that will go on our land and obviously need to make sure we have something that complies. It's likely I will have made my choice and placed an order and had them delivered in September so the timing could be tight.

I have an existing non-commercial tub (a Sundance Peyton) that is offered to guests in our current holiday let. It has a UV filter supplemented with an in-line Bromine feeder for sterilisation and we dip test it daily and adjust, and record the results, but it now looks like we'll be forced to change the water between guests even if they don't use the tub! This is too much work.
Newbie and tired
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

Sorry no update yet, It will be a shame if you decide to forgo the tubs but they only contain a relatively small amount of water so emptying and refill hopefully won't cause too much grief. Set one up for the owner on the south coast. we altered the pipework slightly so it can be emptied in a moment and we coupled it to the hot water circuit of the boiler so we can refill with warm water just as quick.
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
peter_964rs
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by peter_964rs »

A suggestion I was given is a hot pressure washer (electric for the pump and diesel for generating heat) to refill. Still too much work for every changeover, I have guests staying 2-3 days out of season, they leave by 10am and the next set arrive from 4pm for another 2-3 days. A water change and reheat in that time is a challenge.....
Newbie and tired
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

I assume you have a hot water boiler, just takes and extra take off/tap, not difficult really and once done it's a doddle. We used a thermostatic valve set at 30 ish.
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
peter_964rs
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by peter_964rs »

Ah, well - the tub is some 80m away from the house and our biomass boiler - see www.facebook.com/littlesilvernugget - with only an external tap connected to our borehole supply.

The huts we put in will be ~200m from the house, as will their hot tubs. So... hot water must be generated locally. Actually a secondhand hot water jet wash is not that expensive and quite a reasonable way to not only fill the tub, but clean around it too!

I think we'll need some tubs with sand filters to stand a chance of complying with new HSE regs without changing the water between guests every time.
Newbie and tired
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

I am trying to find out how long a gas bottle (13kg butane) would power a gas boiler for. well I will when I actually call Viessmann :oops: could help solve problems for the future.
Teapot, always thinking ahead :lol:
How about an electric water heater, you'll have power to your tubs?
If you do go down the sand filter route, AFM glass from Dryden aqua, filters much finer and back washes easier
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
User avatar
greenbarn
Posts: 6146
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 6:41 pm
Location: The Westmorland Dales, Cumbria

Post by greenbarn »

I’m interested to see this; I don’t have teapot’s expertise and knowledge - will owners legitimately be able to provide a hot tub for paying guests if they don’t observe HSG282 recommendations, or have these yet to be finalised?

One statement in the document says:
118 Where a hot tub or spa pool is used as a business activity, the total water volume should be replaced each week, or after each group of users, if earlier

In section 125 there’s a table showing various recommendations including the emptying/cleaning regime after each set of guests, and twice daily checks, plus lots of other stuff.

One other concern (which is probably under the wing of the Environment Agency rather than the HSE) is the discharge of the chemically treated water when the hot tub is emptied. What is supposed to be done with this in the absence of mains drainage? The EA aren’t going to be too happy about it being dumped straight onto the ground, and even less happy where it can very quickly enter a watercourse. Suddenly discharging the chlorinated contents of a couple of hot tubs into a private small sewage treatment package or septic tank must surely impact the effectiveness of the treatment, potentially either killing off a septic tank or resulting in contaminated water being released in the case of a sewage treatment package? Not something that seems to concern the outfits that hire out hot tubs to remote locations.

Hmmm - lots to think about.
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

All valid points, This HSG document is a guidance document, I can't make any comment as to what will or will not become the rules later on but they will certainly take the HSG into consideration. One person assured me auto dosing will be in the final document, simply because conditions can change rapidly due to the amount of water and number of bathers compared to a pool

Many of the dosing units, the better ones, will have a data logging feature so recording the levels at many points during the day with manual testing to verify auto testing is staying calibrated.

Cleaning of the hottub/spa or deep cleaning can already be done with a chlorine dioxide formulation separate from ordinary chlorination. Advanced oxidation process is another new disinfection process that could be adapted to deep clean but I believe that to be some way off yet.

Discharge of chlorine, the levels at which we use would almost immediately be rendered zero as it hit the ground but that maybe still not enough for the water authorities or local authorities so we can us a dechlorinator which is safe to use. I have this in my kit already as several newbies have seriously overdosed their pools just prior to guests arriving.
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
User avatar
greenbarn
Posts: 6146
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 6:41 pm
Location: The Westmorland Dales, Cumbria

Post by greenbarn »

Thanks teapot - all interesting stuff.
Norfolk Canary
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:03 am

Post by Norfolk Canary »

Sound like more trouble than it is worth to me! Heaven knows what ends up in hot tubs!
peter_964rs
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: North Devon

Post by peter_964rs »

Since putting out hot tub, our bookings have gone through the roof. This year, we have twelve days still free....

So it's worth it, IMHO.

But, I do have a real concern about HSE inspections and what they may mandate. What if, God Forbid, one of our guests does contract something like Legionella? I need to make sure we have plenty of evidence we followed the recommended routine to the best of our abilities.

As it happen the tub I have installed - a Sundance Peyton - has an in-line UV filter and in-line Bromine auto-doser called a Sani King. I check it once daily with the dip test, but don't change the water between guests because it would be pointless; some of them don't even use the tub (typically the older ones that don't do that sort of thing). Some are in the tub every day, and some just once in their whole week's visit for the experience.

Otherwise, it sits there filtering and sanitising. Enduring a water change every weekend is overzealous bureaucracy in my view. Instead I shock the tub on changeover, change the filter every month, and change the water every two months or so. But, now, it seems I should consider sand filters if I want to avoid some kind of enforcement action should I adopt the same regime with the three new tubs. :(
Newbie and tired
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

Norfolk Canary wrote:Sound like more trouble than it is worth to me! Heaven knows what ends up in hot tubs!
well it's exactly what you put into them! :lol: :lol:
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
User avatar
teapot
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Loire valley

Post by teapot »

peter_964rs wrote: Enduring a water change every weekend is overzealous bureaucracy in my view. Instead I shock the tub on changeover, change the filter every month, and change the water every two months or so. But, now, it seems I should consider sand filters if I want to avoid some kind of enforcement action should I adopt the same regime with the three new tubs. :(
I don't believe any of us like the interference but from what I know, You are pretty much immune to the bacteria in your body (it lives there after all). Someone else may not be hence the water change between guests.

You are probably already doing most things except maybe logging the water tests and having 3 monthly bacteria/legionella tests.

Otherwise it's a bit more cleaning.

One point I didn't mention the other day, some tubs have a high speed setting for massage jets. This actually increases the water flow through the filters making them filter less as you get a filtration breakthrough point. The schematic I saw a couple of months back and one which I have adopted for my customers keeps the filtration separate so that continues at the correct flow ( I set this as a 9 minute turnover) and the massage jets are separate (unfiltered).
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
skylander
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:04 pm
Location: Isle of Skye

Post by skylander »

How about a SCANDANAVIAN TYPE SPA then?

If we provided an empty scandanvian wood hot tub (wood fired) and said if guests want to use it, it is their responsibility to fill it up and then drain it off at the end of their usage, leaving the water no longer than 3 days (or something) then effectively they are using it at their own risk, like an outdoor bathtub.

Where were buying our place, there will be no chance of getting someone to test a hot tub daily, or fill it / empty it, but we would like to use when were staying there.
If it is a wooden hot tub , its not clorinated etc, and effectively is like an outdoor bath, so surely that's a different story?
Post Reply