However we receive bookings (our website or holiday rental site) we then send the guest a booking form to fill in with our T&C's attached. In the case of our Leucate naturist beach apartment the clause relating to tds states:
"We are obliged by law to collect a Tourist Tax from all adult guests before you leave which we pass on to the Leucate Mairie. We do not yet know the amount for 2019, but in 2018 it amounts to 0.80€ per adult per night."
We have never had anyone complain about paying it.
Taxe de Sejour from 2019 - surely not €300+?
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oasiscouple
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:55 am
- Location: Port Leucate, France
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I take your point oasiscouple that frequent visitors to France who stay in hotels, b&bs etc. will know about the tds. We are never surprised or put out to see it on a hotel bill. But, a lot of gite customers do not go to hotels etc. that often to have come across it or just don't notice/know what it is on bills.
When we first started here we used to collect the damages deposit cheque when the guest arrived. We stopped doing so after a year because we found it spoiled the "welcome" experience by having to deal/take money etc. when we were trying to be friendly and they were trying to settle in.
Collecting the tds from the guest when they are here will, I feel, create the same sort of experience.
From a personal point of view, we recently had a long weekend away in France and stayed in a small hotel/large guest house. When we'd parked and got the luggage and checked in we were just about to head off to our room for a much-needed shower and head out for a beer when the owner insisted on us paying the tds. He wanted cash or a separate cheque for his "accounting" and it was, to be honest, a real pain. We would have had no problem paying the tds at the end of our stay with it included in our bill but the 'up front' demand was not a good start to our stay and set the wrong sort of tone.
When we first started here we used to collect the damages deposit cheque when the guest arrived. We stopped doing so after a year because we found it spoiled the "welcome" experience by having to deal/take money etc. when we were trying to be friendly and they were trying to settle in.
Collecting the tds from the guest when they are here will, I feel, create the same sort of experience.
From a personal point of view, we recently had a long weekend away in France and stayed in a small hotel/large guest house. When we'd parked and got the luggage and checked in we were just about to head off to our room for a much-needed shower and head out for a beer when the owner insisted on us paying the tds. He wanted cash or a separate cheque for his "accounting" and it was, to be honest, a real pain. We would have had no problem paying the tds at the end of our stay with it included in our bill but the 'up front' demand was not a good start to our stay and set the wrong sort of tone.
My inclination is to do as we have always done and that's to say that the price includes TdS and save the problem of charging for it separately, I wouldn't expect a VAT registered business to ask for me to pay the VAT separately so why should we for TdS? This new way of calculating it means that it's more complicated to explain the amount than the old flat rate which is a pita.
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oasiscouple
- Posts: 456
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- Location: Port Leucate, France
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Seeing the tendancy here to include the tds in the rental rate and not charge it separately, gets me thinking about one or two points.
1. Does this mean that the guests don't know they are liable for tds as you are paying it for them? If so, does it make them wonder why certain establishments ask them to pay it, and some don't?
2. Presumably you are declaring your rental income on your annual tax return. If you are declaring the gross amount received and you are taxable, you will be paying tax on the tds. If you are deducting the tds from your gross income, might you not be at risk of a query from the tax authorities as to why there is a difference.
3. Similarly, if you are paying the social charges on a percentage of the income, are you then paying social charges on the tds?
I will stick to what most French holiday rental establishments do and ask my guests to pay it separately. In all my years doing lettings, no-one had ever resented it or queried it.
1. Does this mean that the guests don't know they are liable for tds as you are paying it for them? If so, does it make them wonder why certain establishments ask them to pay it, and some don't?
2. Presumably you are declaring your rental income on your annual tax return. If you are declaring the gross amount received and you are taxable, you will be paying tax on the tds. If you are deducting the tds from your gross income, might you not be at risk of a query from the tax authorities as to why there is a difference.
3. Similarly, if you are paying the social charges on a percentage of the income, are you then paying social charges on the tds?
I will stick to what most French holiday rental establishments do and ask my guests to pay it separately. In all my years doing lettings, no-one had ever resented it or queried it.
Honi soit qui peu y boit
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vacancesthezan
- Posts: 311
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We were always told that we had to split out the TdeS from the rental on invoices etc. Think it is mentioned in the paperwork we get from the tourist office every year. They can control you and if you havent the paperwork it may be a fine-able offence (sorry cant remember!).
We sometimes include the Tax in the price or add it on as an extra but we would always tell the renter (and note it on paperwork) This avoids any ambiguity particularly if it is to become a significant sum.
VT
We sometimes include the Tax in the price or add it on as an extra but we would always tell the renter (and note it on paperwork) This avoids any ambiguity particularly if it is to become a significant sum.
VT
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vacancesthezan
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Last year it was October - FOR THAT YEAR, they had changed the pricing structure of course.GillianF wrote:You get paperwork from your Tourist Office - every year!!
We've never had anything from ours ………….. except the bill for taxe de sejour, of course.
When we sent our paperwork back - dutifully filled in, we enclosed a photocopy of the relevant part in their rather long deliberations that stated that they must tell us before the beginning of that year(at the latest) if they are going to change the tax structure. Needless to say it fell on deaf ears.
We refuse to go to any of their "meetings" and just avoid all contact. You cant even get a car within 100metres of the office because of the number of administrators working there who have to park their cars.
You have set us off now!!
VT
We agree with Oasiscouple, Taxe de Séjour (TDS) is paid by the guest and not a single guest has ever questioned it and understands its purpose is to be ploughed back into tourism. That's about 50 bookings per year for 5 years collecting TDS times about 4 people per booking (about 1000 guests).
Our booking form calculates upfront the amount payable so it's not a surprise and it's also shown on the contract (but not included in the cost - as required by law I think).
This change only applies to non-classified accommodation so maybe it's time to get classified (by the prefecture - not the GDF and CV labels). Classification does not cost that much - I think we paid somewhere around 120 € for 2 gites for a classification that lasts 5 years and with our 3* classification our guests pay 0.50 € per person per night.
Back to the new system for unclassified gites... there is a capping applied so my understanding is that nobody should pay more than 2.30 € per person per night. The calculation is shown below and is essentially extracted from a document written by Charentes Tourisme (Annex 6, page 41) https://charentestourisme.com/content/d ... ls-min.pdf
TDS = Taxe de Sejour paid per person per night
TAD = Departmental tax (if any), I think it is 10% if applied but as it's not applied to us I'm not sure
T = Total cost of accommodation (excluding extra costs such as breakfasts, cleaning etc)
N = No. nights
P = percentage chosen by the commune to apply to non-classified accommodation (1-5)
G = Number of guests
E = Number of exempt guests (nearly always the number guests under 18 years old)
C = Ceiling rate is the lower of the TDS rate for "Palaces" set by your commune and maximum possible (nationwide) for "4 star hotels"
TDS = (((T/N)/G)/100)*P
If the calculated TDS is greater than the ceiling (C) then TDS = C
If TAD is applied then the final TDS after applying a ceiling = TDS * 1.1
I believe that the maximum TDS in France for a 4 star hotel is 2.30 € in 2019 and therefore that is the maximum that can be applied to an unclassified gite.
I would suggest you do a simple excel spreadsheet to calculate it using the formula above.
Our booking form calculates upfront the amount payable so it's not a surprise and it's also shown on the contract (but not included in the cost - as required by law I think).
This change only applies to non-classified accommodation so maybe it's time to get classified (by the prefecture - not the GDF and CV labels). Classification does not cost that much - I think we paid somewhere around 120 € for 2 gites for a classification that lasts 5 years and with our 3* classification our guests pay 0.50 € per person per night.
Back to the new system for unclassified gites... there is a capping applied so my understanding is that nobody should pay more than 2.30 € per person per night. The calculation is shown below and is essentially extracted from a document written by Charentes Tourisme (Annex 6, page 41) https://charentestourisme.com/content/d ... ls-min.pdf
TDS = Taxe de Sejour paid per person per night
TAD = Departmental tax (if any), I think it is 10% if applied but as it's not applied to us I'm not sure
T = Total cost of accommodation (excluding extra costs such as breakfasts, cleaning etc)
N = No. nights
P = percentage chosen by the commune to apply to non-classified accommodation (1-5)
G = Number of guests
E = Number of exempt guests (nearly always the number guests under 18 years old)
C = Ceiling rate is the lower of the TDS rate for "Palaces" set by your commune and maximum possible (nationwide) for "4 star hotels"
TDS = (((T/N)/G)/100)*P
If the calculated TDS is greater than the ceiling (C) then TDS = C
If TAD is applied then the final TDS after applying a ceiling = TDS * 1.1
I believe that the maximum TDS in France for a 4 star hotel is 2.30 € in 2019 and therefore that is the maximum that can be applied to an unclassified gite.
I would suggest you do a simple excel spreadsheet to calculate it using the formula above.
Peggy and Lionel
Always do Cooking, Bed Making and Website design with Love and the rest will follow.
www.casteldecantobre.co.uk
www.casteldecantobre.fr
www.facebook.com/CastelDeCantobre
Always do Cooking, Bed Making and Website design with Love and the rest will follow.
www.casteldecantobre.co.uk
www.casteldecantobre.fr
www.facebook.com/CastelDeCantobre
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oasiscouple
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:55 am
- Location: Port Leucate, France
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Thank you for that information Peggymac, which confirms my belief that it is completely wrong to include the TDS in your rental charge. Apart from the fact you risk having to pay tax on a tax (if you declare your rental income for tax - or perhaps you don't!) it also ensures everything is above board and the obligation is clear to everyone, especially your guests.
However, what you have given in some detail is evidently for Charente and can vary from region to region.
We do B&B in Gironde, in particular "Pays foyen" where up to now the rules are very casual and we just have to declare twice per year the number of adults and the number of nights booked multiplied by 0.77€ and pay the resulting amount. No other détails are required.
The TDS régulations for our beach apartment in Port Leucate, Aude department, are different and the Mairie send us a form to fill in giving simply the dates of the start and end of each lettings, number of adults multiplied by 0.80€ and we send a cheque payable to the Tresor Public for the appropriate amount.
Of course the unknown is what will change for 2019 which we don't yet know.
I can't help suggesting to the non French property owners on here to think of the saying "when in Rome ....." and not try and bypass the system.
However, what you have given in some detail is evidently for Charente and can vary from region to region.
We do B&B in Gironde, in particular "Pays foyen" where up to now the rules are very casual and we just have to declare twice per year the number of adults and the number of nights booked multiplied by 0.77€ and pay the resulting amount. No other détails are required.
The TDS régulations for our beach apartment in Port Leucate, Aude department, are different and the Mairie send us a form to fill in giving simply the dates of the start and end of each lettings, number of adults multiplied by 0.80€ and we send a cheque payable to the Tresor Public for the appropriate amount.
Of course the unknown is what will change for 2019 which we don't yet know.
I can't help suggesting to the non French property owners on here to think of the saying "when in Rome ....." and not try and bypass the system.
Honi soit qui peu y boit
oasiscouple... I believe that what I wrote applies to the whole of France, I found another website taxesejour.fr and they were saying the same. The only reason I looked at Charentes and quoted them was that they seemed easier to understand. I think the only things that can vary from commune to commune are the percentages (1-5) and the TDS rate that a particular commune imposes for "Palaces"
As for payments, our tourist office (South Aveyron) accepts a payment every January along with a form that I wrote to look like theirs that lists each booking with the numbers of guests and exempt guests with the total TDS cost for the booking and a total at the bottom. The form is just an excel spreadsheet that populates itself from our bookings spreadsheet so no real work to do
I think if we were still unclassified which we were for a while, this TDS change would push us to get us classified.
As for payments, our tourist office (South Aveyron) accepts a payment every January along with a form that I wrote to look like theirs that lists each booking with the numbers of guests and exempt guests with the total TDS cost for the booking and a total at the bottom. The form is just an excel spreadsheet that populates itself from our bookings spreadsheet so no real work to do
I think if we were still unclassified which we were for a while, this TDS change would push us to get us classified.
Peggy and Lionel
Always do Cooking, Bed Making and Website design with Love and the rest will follow.
www.casteldecantobre.co.uk
www.casteldecantobre.fr
www.facebook.com/CastelDeCantobre
Always do Cooking, Bed Making and Website design with Love and the rest will follow.
www.casteldecantobre.co.uk
www.casteldecantobre.fr
www.facebook.com/CastelDeCantobre
You talk about 'exempt guests' and numbers of guests to calculate tds.
Our commune no longer takes account of this. They calculate the number of nights we are 'open' (a date in May to a date in September) and the number we sleep - 6.
They multiply the number of nights available to book in the period by 6 by the tax and charge it. There are no longer 'exempt guests' nor any account of whether we booked 5 weeks, 10 weeks or no weeks at all!
Our commune no longer takes account of this. They calculate the number of nights we are 'open' (a date in May to a date in September) and the number we sleep - 6.
They multiply the number of nights available to book in the period by 6 by the tax and charge it. There are no longer 'exempt guests' nor any account of whether we booked 5 weeks, 10 weeks or no weeks at all!
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Frenchlady
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:52 pm
- Location: Dordogne
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Gillian F, we are now also on the forfait system for the last 2 years. They calculate from July to end of August you will be full for the number of B&B guests you sleep and you get a total bill. We are never full completely for both months so just have to hope the tax we have taken outside these months adds up to what they want or we are out of pocket.
It gets worse, because today we also just had notification that from Jan 2019 if we are not classified (which we are not) our guests will have to pay 3% of the room night per person which equates to 1.86 each - whow!!! that is a big jump from 55c per night. Also as I mentioned on this forum, Airbnb have been taking the wrong tax all Summer at 22c per night (campsite rate) and I cannot get them to sort that out. What the hell is going to happen next year. I now advertise on B.com who do not take the tax (yet) but my room rate is higher so the guests will be paying even more who come from that OTA. What a total mess.
It gets worse, because today we also just had notification that from Jan 2019 if we are not classified (which we are not) our guests will have to pay 3% of the room night per person which equates to 1.86 each - whow!!! that is a big jump from 55c per night. Also as I mentioned on this forum, Airbnb have been taking the wrong tax all Summer at 22c per night (campsite rate) and I cannot get them to sort that out. What the hell is going to happen next year. I now advertise on B.com who do not take the tax (yet) but my room rate is higher so the guests will be paying even more who come from that OTA. What a total mess.
French Lady: Absolutely and my point exactly.
I'm going to visit the tourist office who are supposed to keep us informed about all this and check what the rate per person per night is going to be for next year. If it is a lot higher than we now pay then we are going to have to think about asking guests to pay that separately.
I know everyone here says that guests know about the local tax, understand they are liable for a local tax and it's never been any bother to them, no fuss etc. but that really isn't how I feel about it. No-one, ever, has asked me if they need to pay the tax or how much the tax is and I think most of our guests are completely ignorant of it. If they ever stay in a hotel or similar where it is itemised on the bill I don't think they notice it, register it in their minds or even think about it. They look at the bottom of the bill for the total and it looks more or less right so they pay. If they notice the tax they probably just think it is because they are in a hotel, some special tax, VAT or similar.
I'm going to visit the tourist office who are supposed to keep us informed about all this and check what the rate per person per night is going to be for next year. If it is a lot higher than we now pay then we are going to have to think about asking guests to pay that separately.
I know everyone here says that guests know about the local tax, understand they are liable for a local tax and it's never been any bother to them, no fuss etc. but that really isn't how I feel about it. No-one, ever, has asked me if they need to pay the tax or how much the tax is and I think most of our guests are completely ignorant of it. If they ever stay in a hotel or similar where it is itemised on the bill I don't think they notice it, register it in their minds or even think about it. They look at the bottom of the bill for the total and it looks more or less right so they pay. If they notice the tax they probably just think it is because they are in a hotel, some special tax, VAT or similar.