Lay My Hat home page Lay My Hat Forum
The forum for holiday rental owners


 
  FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups    RegisterRegister  
  ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 

Classification 'meuble' for British resident taxpayer?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lay My Hat Forum Index -> France
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chrishax



Joined: 12 Mar 2021
Posts: 21
Location: Nice

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject: Classification 'meuble' for British resident taxpayer? Reply with quote

Might be a bit complicated, but I have a flat in Nice, rentable May to October, placed with an agency (interhome/HHD).

They keep bugging me to pay to get my flat classified (about 200 euros) claiming taxes can be as high as 4 euros pp per night if I don't.

My thought is that as a UK resident and taxpayer, the increase from 50% to 71% in deductions is worth nothing to me, as I declare the French income, net of expenses, on my UK tax form. And frankly I don't make any 'profit' once costs are deducted, as we use the flat in wintertime as far as Schengen allows.

So, are there any other advantages, other than the per-night fees to renters, that a British taxpayer should consider, or is it just not so helpful to me to have my flat classified (compared to French taxpayers)?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farley



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 151
Location: Poitou Charentes

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chrishax
I’m sure far more knowledgeable folk will be along soon but my first thought is you should be declaring your French flats income to the French Tax Office ( the one for non residents).
Might be a good idea to get an accountant to handle both your French and U.K. tax return , at least initially, so you get an idea about how the system works.
Anyway, hope some other LMHatters can give you a bit more advice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oasiscouple



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 445
Location: Port Leucate, France

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not being a UK taxpayer I can't give a full answer but we had our rental apartment classified at one star for the simple reason of reducing the taxe de sejour for our guests. 0.88 euros per adult per night instead of 4 euros.

We are taxed in France and another advantage is that the tax authorities reduce the taxable income on the property by 71% instead of 50%.
_________________
Honi soit qui peu y boit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chrishax



Joined: 12 Mar 2021
Posts: 21
Location: Nice

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Farley and Oasiscouple.

So far, the advice I have been given is to submit my UK proof of main residence and proof of UK tax payment, and that's all, to the French authorities.

In this regard I am anxious if someone really knows if this advice is wrong.

Assuming it is correct then the 71% deduction would not apply to my case, just a decision on whether to pass on the higher cost to holidaymakers, and perhaps a slight increase in credibility.

But yes, if someone has clarity on the issue of sending them a proof of UK residence and tax status being sufficient or not, I would love to hear !!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vacancesthezan



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 304
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrishax wrote:
Thanks Farley and Oasiscouple.

So far, the advice I have been given is to submit my UK proof of main residence and proof of UK tax payment, and that's all, to the French authorities.

In this regard I am anxious if someone really knows if this advice is wrong.

Assuming it is correct then the 71% deduction would not apply to my case, just a decision on whether to pass on the higher cost to holidaymakers, and perhaps a slight increase in credibility.

But yes, if someone has clarity on the issue of sending them a proof of UK residence and tax status being sufficient or not, I would love to hear !!!


Yes would have thought that the advice was wrong!!

Income in France should be declared to the French authorities regardless of where you are resident. There is an online form that you must complete each year with your French earnings. This is what the 71% is talking about.

Your rental property should be registered with the Marie in Nice

and on and on goes the list of legal requirements.

Yikes if you are not already doing these!!

VT
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chrishax



Joined: 12 Mar 2021
Posts: 21
Location: Nice

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so yes it is registered via the agency, and their business is centred in Switzerland, and I have sent French system an HMRC attensation plus my global income of just 10k net - fully declared in UK - and inclusive of the French rental income, so I feel the ball is in their court..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vacancesthezan



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 304
Location: France

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrishax wrote:
so yes it is registered via the agency, and their business is centred in Switzerland, and I have sent French system an HMRC attensation plus my global income of just 10k net - fully declared in UK - and inclusive of the French rental income, so I feel the ball is in their court..


bon courage!

VT
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hells Bells



Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 13183
Location: French Alps

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should be first and foremost declaring the income on your property to the French tax authorities. As a non-French resident, any income you earn outside of France is not their concern. Should you be then liable for French tax, you declare this on your Uk tax form. Any difference is then either charged or refunded. An attestation is not sufficient, you need to complete the tax return.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Martha



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 2270
Location: Chamonix

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add with regards to the original question - we have already had this price hike in tourist tax here. Unsurprising really because the old system encouraged you to not register for classification, it was the cheapest option.
Now, unclassified accommodation is taxed at the absolute highest rate, it's enough to make quite a difference. So I think it's not a 'claim', I would imagine it's going to happen.
_________________
Chalet la Foret, Chamonix
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chrishax



Joined: 12 Mar 2021
Posts: 21
Location: Nice

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hells Bells wrote:
You should be first and foremost declaring the income on your property to the French tax authorities. As a non-French resident, any income you earn outside of France is not their concern. Should you be then liable for French tax, you declare this on your Uk tax form. Any difference is then either charged or refunded. An attestation is not sufficient, you need to complete the tax return.


Thanks for the thoughts HB. I have in fact declared it, by sending the information I have to them inclusive of the UK tax return, but not completing a French tax return.

Instead, as I understand it there are exceptions/thresholds for low income within the French tax system, for which you must prove your (low) global income if you are not a French citizen. I have, in submitting my Uk return to France, done this 'declaration', and made the point that I have below-taxation income.

My UK income for income tax purposes is below 10k, inclusive of the gross French income for the rental of the apartment

Moreover, my income-less-expenses for the apartment is negative since I spend up to 6 months there myself (Schengen rules permitting), and it only rents when Covid, terrorism, Brexit or other disasters permit.

The UK accounting method allows me to deduct expenses for the time it is placed with the agency, which at 50% is more than enough to wipe out any net return.

Now, it is possible that they would exempt this on the basis of modest income level, but it is also possible they will not. However they have the information sent to them, showing best efforts to give them the correct picture of my taxable finances
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oasiscouple



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 445
Location: Port Leucate, France

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Classification 'meuble' for British resident taxpayer? Reply with quote

chrishax wrote:
Might be a bit complicated, but I have a flat in Nice, rentable May to October, placed with an agency (interhome/HHD).

They keep bugging me to pay to get my flat classified (about 200 euros) claiming taxes can be as high as 4 euros pp per night if I don't.

My thought is that as a UK resident and taxpayer, the increase from 50% to 71% in deductions is worth nothing to me, as I declare the French income, net of expenses, on my UK tax form. And frankly I don't make any 'profit' once costs are deducted, as we use the flat in wintertime as far as Schengen allows.

So, are there any other advantages, other than the per-night fees to renters, that a British taxpayer should consider, or is it just not so helpful to me to have my flat classified (compared to French taxpayers)?

The discussion seems to have gone off on a tangent. Tourist tax (taxe de séjour) is payable by the guest and has nothing to do with your income or tax déclarations. This tax, payable by the guest to you or the agency is much higher if your property is not classified as I mentioned earlier. The authorities surely know it is a rental property via the agency and who normally must declare the number of adults per night who have rented it, failing which you face a fine.

The situation if the place is not classified is that 4€ (or similar)per adult per night needs to be declared and paid. So 2 adults for 7 days will have to pay 56€ per week on top of the rent. If the property is classified, this tax due by the guest will be much less.
_________________
Honi soit qui peu y boit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
chrishax



Joined: 12 Mar 2021
Posts: 21
Location: Nice

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was my post after all Oasis !

So, my issue was APART FROM the taxes you (re)state, what OTHER CONSIDERATIONS might a British taxpayer consider when assessing the value of the classification.

I receive a very modest sum from the rental, and under certain situations, I would be entitled to be untaxed in the French system, and am already 'taxed' (at 0) on my very modest worldwide income, which includes the apartment income.

I have already been made aware of the charges you mention by the rental agency, but this needs to be balanced for me by considerations of other tax issues. I was interested in this post on the additional comments really.... but thank you for the accurate statement Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oasiscouple



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 445
Location: Port Leucate, France

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I see where you are coming from.

Two considerations in my mind :

1. Would a higher tax de séjour, if you are not classified, put off a potential guest? Possibly not in Nice which I suppose attracts better off guests.

2. A good classification (e.g. 2 or 3 star) could perhaps be an advantage and warrant increasing the rent.

Having said that, neither point is related to being a British taxpayer.
_________________
Honi soit qui peu y boit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lay My Hat Forum Index -> France All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group