A group of 12 sixteen year olds!

[harcourtv57]

ONly this week have had a very polite enquiry for a group of five 16 year olds, who offered to provide a reference from an adult on their behalf. I equally politely replied that our insurance terms prevent us from either taking bookings from or letting to 'minors' unless accompanied by an adult. Had a nice reply back saying they fully understood and thanks anyway - which is more of a response than I often get from other enquirers

[LaVilleauTady]

Would I be completely and utterly mad to take it?

YES

Anyone got any experience of a load of 16 yr olds?

NO and I have no intention of getting any! lol

There was a whole TV documentary dedicated to the drunken antics of the descending teens on Cornwall. It got so bad the police could no longer cope.

I don't think turning down such a booking request would be sad and untrusting. I'd call it sensible.

[Don Ciccio]

I didn't really need the patronising lecture on paranoia given to me earlier in this thread, but thanks. Here in Europe, and I speak from an Italian perspective, 14 year olds are able to drive mopeds alone, 18 year olds can drive a car on the open road. In the UK its 16 and 17 respectively. Elsewhere the ages vary as do the laws of each land.

Italy does not have the teen-binge drinking problems that the Uk has, for many societal reasons - and i was merely commenting on how sad it is that people immediately assume that a group of 16 year olds are likely to be inherantly 'bad'. As the other example on this board shows, some are polite, understanding and well behaved. They are also the result of our societal upbringing/family culture. If we look at them with untrusting eyes, they grow up wary and disenfranchised -0 just look at how our mistrust of kids and our own obsession with cctv has helped create the 'hoodie'. Assuming the worst and treating them as if they have done something bad is not going to build any bridges between the exisitng generation and the next. Explain to them your concerns about the alcohol and rental age, explain they will need a chaperone because of the law and see how it goes? If you treat them with a bit of respect and faith, they may remember you in two years time and come to you after their A-levels are over and they can legally book with you.

I accept what you say about the legalities of letting to under 18 year olds, but in the UK you are criminaly responsible at 10, can be left at home alone and travel alone as an adult on a plane at 12, get married, drive a moped, leave school and get a job at 16 and a car at 17. You can't officially buy cigs/alcohol until 18, but it is not illegal to drink at home in moderation from an early age (like the rest of non-booze culture europe). These responsibilities are passed on to these young humans at a point where each nation/society has agreed that the average individual will have reached a satisfactory level of competency and responsibility - and as every person is different this means that some will be ready at 16, and others wont be ready until 20, lets not assume that a 16 year old is as irresponsible, untrustworthy, or in need of full supervision as a 13, 10 or 8 year old. If 16 year olds are indeed such impressionable puppets in need of such vigilant supervision by adults, why do we as adults allow them to be exposed to our commercialised world of advertised lifestyle gadgets, consumables etc without a moment's hesitation.

The UK seems to have become a paranoid nanny-state, rush-legislating on everything and confusing the hell out of everyone in the process - while other European nations leave many of the personal decisions (such as when your child is ready to be given certain responsibilities) to the families, and seem to be the better for it.

I'm probably wasting my breath, but i feel like people are missing my point for the sake of an argument. We were all 16 once.

Good night

[A-two]

We don't need a lecture on raising teenagers thanks, most of us have the T shirt, neither on treating them with respect so they come back years later, we have their reviews in the guest book already. I can't even get my head round your statement that mainland Europe is raising more responsible children because they haven't become a paranoid nanny state like the UK. Frankly, the notion is ridiculous and a complete overreaction to the issue, which is about not renting to children, on which everyone seems to have reached a consensus except you. Nobody has said that 16 yr old are bad, it's not about bad and good, it's about maturity, and everyone else seems to agree that a 16 yr old is a child, not an adult and that renting to children, unsupervised, is not appropriate. If you disagree, then you are free to advertise your property as a teenage party house for tweenies. Good Luck with that one!

[J&J]

From personal experience it is the damage and breakages we remember with such a group. We had a broken window (someone threw an apple), snapped bed slats, a burnt le creuset pan, chewing gum stuck to bedroom wall paper, a rucked up swimming pool liner from all the volleyball jumping etc. etc. - in fact the whole house needed a major clean. Add to this, a stolen sign from Macdonalds (?) and various other pilfered items and piles of bottles. Luckily we were on site to curb any loud, undesirable behaviour, but I would advise against it.

Judith

[Don Ciccio]

From personal experience it is the damage and breakages we remember with such a group. We had a broken window (someone threw an apple), snapped bed slats, a burnt le creuset pan, chewing gum stuck to bedroom wall paper, a rucked up swimming pool liner from all the volleyball jumping etc. etc. - in fact the whole house needed a major clean. Add to this, a stolen sign from Macdonalds (?) and various other pilfered items and piles of bottles. Luckily we were on site to curb any loud, undesirable behaviour, but I would advise against it.

Judith

I'm sorry, i'm confused... Is it the same group of 16 years olds that rented your property? No? Then, I reitterate my point about not assuming the worst in everyone based on their age and that the fact that another small group of 16 years olds (from a planet of 7 billion varied people) did not behave on a previous occasion.

Expressing previous experience is fine, but please please lets caveat our experiences with a bit of common sense and leave out the prejudicial stereotyping. Please.

We have ourselves experienced a bad let to a local family - but accept that it is an isolated incident and keep an open mind about potential new guests.

[pambon]

Don Ciccio says:
We have ourselves experienced a bad let to a local family - but accept that it is an isolated incident and keep an open mind about potential new guests.[/quote]

A thread creep - talking of a local family rather than 16 yr olds.

Sadly I avoid Sicilians as guests and I am not alone in this; other rental owners here, both local and foreign, avoid them as much as possible. This is one group of renters that seem to consistently be impossible. (Even those who have lived a life-time in the north of Italy.)

Obviously there are also those who are perfect guests - I've yet to meet or hear of them though......

We all have our reasons for not accepting a certain category of guest.

[J&J]

DC I think some of us live in the real world, especially those of us working daily with that particular age group, and we feel it appropriate to share our experiences on the subject.
Figures out today show that over half the new teachers in the UK say they are not equipped to deal with the violence which erupts in schools. It's not a case of prejudicial stereotyping, just an awareness that certain things do commonly occur amongst this age group, and forewarned is forearmed.
I thought the account of my experience concentrated very carefully on the physical damage caused by the group and not on the behaviour. Just walk around any university town in July and see all the skips full of beds and furniture that landlords have to throw away. It's a fact of life that teenagers are dirty and messy, but no doubt there will be owners who are happy to take the risk letting their accommodation to this group. Just not for me.
Judith

[Don Ciccio]

A thread creep - talking of a local family rather than 16 yr olds.

Sadly I avoid Sicilians as guests and I am not alone in this; other rental owners here, both local and foreign, avoid them as much as possible. This is one group of renters that seem to consistently be impossible. (Even those who have lived a life-time in the north of Italy.)

Obviously there are also those who are perfect guests - I've yet to meet or hear of them though......

That's it. I'm sick of the bigotry and masked prejudice on this forum. It is such a shame that people like you seem to be the ones trying to hog the limelight on this forum.

I have received PMs of support from people who have lost the confidence in posting publicly on these boards and find it appalling that Forum management allow such prejudice to be openly bandied about.

We all have our reasons for not accepting a certain category of guest.

I have nothing against people talking about their experience of a particular person, group or family - but making sweeping generalisations about an entire nation/age/etc based on isolated experiences I do find objectionable. By opting out of future experience from 'similar' people, you are closing off any future (possible positive) experience to counter your existing 'view' and merely reinforcing your view. It's called being 'blinkered', like a horse.

By generalising about age groups or nationalities you are but a hairs width away from expressing prejudicial views about races, religions, physical abilities, the sexes or sexuality. If you want to express such bigoted small-minded views on a public forum, please dont expect me to sit here quietly and say nothing.

Why are you in the open market rental business at all? Sign up to the Daily Mail holiday club and content yourself with endless White, straight, tory voting guests who are apparently 'perfect' (and yes, thats me being prejudiced in my view of DM readers - though I am sure there are others who just like it for the crossword!).

I'm signing out of this thread now as the common sense view is now coming to me by PM, and i'm sick of wading through such small minded opinions. Thank you to thoser of you who have spoken fairly on the thread and in PMs. Goodbye thread.

[pambon]

Sorry you feel that way Don Ciccio. It is not a sweeping generalisation based on an isolated experience.

Several experiences have gone pear shaped for me and talking with other rental owners here, both Sicilian (yes!) and non, agree with my views.

As I've reiterated before here, I love Sicily and the Sicilians (after all I'm married to one) and after nearly half a century living here would never consider living elsewhere; they give generously of their friendship, but those who choose to rent for the August break rarely respect the property they are in or the local bye-laws regarding rubbish and noise disturbance.

I've no problem with a divergence of views on this Forum, after all this is what discussion is all about. What I find unacceptable is an attack on the person expressing it. Attack the view not the person.

[LaVilleauTady]

Oh katiegirl, who'd have thought a simple question would have unleashed all this!

Don Ciccio, I do find a certain irony in your postings. You espouse others to listen to your views, but seem reluctant to listen to theirs when you disagree with that they say.
This is a discussion forum... people will disagree with you. That's the point.

I can't agree that anyone advising against a booking from 12 sixteen year olds must be basing their views on prejudice.

I think there are sound reasons for considering this a high risk group. Prejudice is an unreasonable view, not supported by facts.

I know that most 16 yr olds are nice people individually. The problem comes when you bring them together in a large group. There is a principle called Diffusion of Responsibility which means that where you have large groups they do not behave as they would individually or in smaller groups. Who's responsibility will it be to keep excessive behaviour in check in such a group?

If you then put alcohol into the equation, it is a volatile mix, and in my opinion not a risk I would want to take with my property.

I would also decline a booking from a touring rugby squad for the same reasons!

It's not just about age, but age is a factor. Young people have a less developed sense of responsibility than adults - a lot of that comes with age and experience. In some countries you cannot be held criminally responsible for your actions until the age of 18.

I do speak with some experience when I say I know what happens when you mix groups of teenagers and alcohol together.

You say you would accept a booking from a large groups of 16 yr olds, I don't think that is sensible.

The fact I disagree with you does not make me prejudiced. It means we disagree.

[Paul Carmel]

Don Ciccio,

Please do report back after you have taken a few of these bookings then perhaps we can all draw on your experiences.

[Jimbo]

Don Ciccio wrote:

… i'm sick of wading through such small minded opinions.

My father was prejudiced against the entire Japanese nation. Given the stories that he told me, following the heart attack that eventually killed him, I can’t put hand on heart and say that I wouldn’t have felt the same if I’d experienced the brutality that he saw. Do I think that my father was a narrow-minded and blinkered bigot? No, I think that, in his gentle and unassuming way, he was a hero. Certainly, he was my hero.

Conversely, my own experiences have been universally good. Whatever remote place I’ve pitched up in whilst working around the world, I’ve received much kindness and generosity from people that I’ve met. So I’m happy to rent to anybody (within reason). But I’ve been lucky in a way that my father (and many of his generation) was not.

So I’d suggest a little caution when banging-on about how bigoted and blinkered some people might be until you can understand why they hold (what to you seem) extreme views.

Jim

[olive]

"I’d suggest a little caution when banging-on about how bigoted and blinkered some people might be until you can understand why they hold (what to you seem) extreme views. "

Especially if you include a link to your properties from LMH.

[A-two]

Don Ciccio,
You can only be a victim of age discrimination with respect to renting real property if you're an adult, and in this country, anyone less than 18 is a child. So a case cannot be made against anyone here for refusing to rent to a 16 year old on the basis of age. In fact the reverse is true. A case may be made against the owner if they accept a booking from an unaccompanied 16 year old, which is where I started off.

If you were to refuse to rent to an adult because they have a 16 year old in tow, that would be different. They may have a case of discrimination based on the fact there is a child or children in the family, with some exceptions, that we've discussed before at length.

But this whole case is about a bunch of 16 yr olds want to rent somewhere for a party, and nobody has any right to use your home for a party, regardless of their age. In addition, as a 16 yr old can't legally sign a contract here, the whole question of age discrimination becomes mute. Whichever of those reasons someone may chose to deny the rental, a case for discrimination against the person(s) of the 16 year olds just doesn't stand up. Sorry, but I think you're very confused about the issues here.

I do agree with you 150% that discrimination on the basis of national origin is completely unacceptable and would never rent or recommend anywhere that engaged in those practices, and have said so on here many times before. Most folks posting on LMH are very fair in the way they treat prospective guests, and have nothing to hide. Of the few who do discriminate in practice, they rarely admit it, quite likely because it is always challenged, usually by me. You are preaching to the converted.

Welcome to LMH.