Work in progress - comments welcome

[kendalcottages]

Hi everyone

I'm working on the website for Kendal Cottages. It's very patchy at the moment but hopefully now sufficiently usable for me to canvas at least some opinion. Better (and more) photos will follow once we are in a position to take them but we are currently still kitting the place out so I'm going to have to wait for that element (which is a little frustrating!). Anyway, please have a look and see what you think... the Lake District, Yorkshire Dales and Special Interest sections won't work at all at the moment and numerous pages will just say things like 'coming soon' or 'work in progress' but I think you can still get a feel for what we're trying to achieve. Essentially, an easy-to-use, clear and informative site... we hope!

It's now live at http://www.kendalcottages.com despite being in an unfinished state (we want to give the search engines a chance to start spidering some of the content).

Thanks for any comments.

[CSE]

I have noted the work in progress and these comments bear that in mind.
I personally like to see centre web pages rather than leaving a lot of white space over to one side.
Other than that the layout is clean and efficient, easy to read.
Do you need all that information about you in the “about us” section? I feel it is information overload and things like company number need not be published on the Internet. (Have you thought about the security with this?).
Photo gallery: When click on the photo it opens up a nice larger version. However there is no way of getting back to your site except with the return button on ones web browser.
Tariff & Booking: There is no booking form and the information about events do not really line up with dates. The dates have lines under each period maybe consider extending them to the events section too. I also feel the page is too long is there any way of reducing this? If not a return to top button would be good.
Getting Here: The Google map as it is too far zoomed out and does not show the location of your property.
Local area: I can see you will be adding a lot of information, nice layout and photos. The map with locations is a great idea too. However you should remove links to the following pages--- Lake District –Yorkshire Dales and Special Interest. I know they are work in progress but I think that Google does not like non existent links plus it is better for any surfers who come across your website to find all links come up without errors.
One final comment should not the site map link back to the various pages you list?

Hope that all helps.

[kendalcottages]

Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback. I'll take each point in turn.

I personally like to see centre web pages rather than leaving a lot of white space over to one side.

Hmmm... that's interesting. I think my preference is for it to be aligned to the left, particularly where a left hand navigation is concerned. There should only be a large amount of white space to the right if people are using large resolutions. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts on this in order to canvas opinion.

Other than that the layout is clean and efficient, easy to read.

Good! Thank you.

Do you need all that information about you in the “about us” section? I feel it is information overload and things like company number need not be published on the Internet. (Have you thought about the security with this?).

I don't think there's a hugely excessive amount of info in there, is there? It's only about 150 words telling prospective guests who we are and a little about our backgrouind. The company name had been included as I thought it was a legal requirement but apparently the Companies Act only makes this a requirement for VAT registered companies. Since this one isn't VAT registered (yet) then I guess it doesn't need to be there. I'm not sure what the security issues are... surely anyone can just obtain the company number from the company name in any case?

Photo gallery: When click on the photo it opens up a nice larger version. However there is no way of getting back to your site except with the return button on ones web browser.

Yes, this will be correct when we have the correct photos to put in.

Tariff & Booking: There is no booking form and the information about events do not really line up with dates. The dates have lines under each period maybe consider extending them to the events section too. I also feel the page is too long is there any way of reducing this? If not a return to top button would be good.

They ought to pretty much line up but I have two lines of events corresponding with one line in the other columns so they are vertically centred to the preceding information. You're right about the page being too long. I perhaps need to look at breaking it down into sections/separate pages. At the moment, I am thinking that a booking form will only be provided to those who say they want to book, so that page will either be a separate URL or something I email as an attachment.

Getting Here: The Google map as it is too far zoomed out and does not show the location of your property.

My thinking here was that I'd provide basic details on our property's whereabouts on the site and basic guidelines as to how to get to the town, but more detailed information and the property's exact whereabouts would only be given to those who had made a booking.

Local area: I can see you will be adding a lot of information, nice layout and photos. The map with locations is a great idea too. However you should remove links to the following pages--- Lake District –Yorkshire Dales and Special Interest. I know they are work in progress but I think that Google does not like non existent links plus it is better for any surfers who come across your website to find all links come up without errors.

Fair point. That's something I can probably rectify equally quickly by just creating those pages in the next 24 hours.

One final comment should not the site map link back to the various pages you list?

Yes, and it will. For the time being, that very rough draft is there more for my benefit as I work on the site than it is for the search engines. But yes... once I have all those pages created (even if they're lacking in content for now), I can put all those links in place on the sitemap.

Thanks again for having a thorough look. Your comments have been really helpful. I'll be doing more to the site over the coming days and would welcome any additional feedback from anyone who'd like to have a peruse.

[Garri]

I agree with most of what has already been said.

It's becoming unusual these days, in my online world, to see a nav bar on the left. I think you would be doing your visitors a huge favour by placing it on the right. Those with larger monitors have quite a trip every time they click an option and then have to scroll.

If you can guarantee all of your content being displayed above the fold then keep to the left.

Love the way that you've grouped your navigational elements by context - very good! However, it would benefit more from some subtle CSS to distinguish mouseovers etc

The site on the whole looks a bit odd being over on the left with all that white space. If you don't have the 'right' design and layout I think the content can get lost in too much white space.

Love the logo!

[CSE]

RE the centring, it is down to personal choice. But like this website. (Randomly picked from one of the reviews on this forum).
http://www.laera.es/
RE the information. I do not know many of us on this forum who add so much detail of our past history. I too did not know it was a legal requirement to give your company number. I done some delving by simply looking for plumbers in Kendal (as an example) none of the websites I found gave company numbers. Now that means that either they are not VAT registered or it is not a law. I also found several manufactures of Kendal Mint Cake, (I said this was random). That I would assume is a large enough business to be VAT registered. No company number. The security issue is the more information the better is for someone to steel your identity.
Maybe someone with a different web browser does not find your tariff information so confusing as I do. I am using Firefox BTW.
I have just seen on the tariffs page you have listed the week beginning the 26 November, twice.

[Garri]

RE the centring, it is down to personal choice. But like this website. (Randomly picked from one of the reviews on this forum).
http://www.laera.es/

But the centering in that example works better because the top level navigation runs horizontally under the header.

Kendal Cottages has opted for vertical navigation and there are techniques to give this impact and still retain the white space.

[kendalcottages]

It's becoming unusual these days, in my online world, to see a nav bar on the left. I think you would be doing your visitors a huge favour by placing it on the right. Those with larger monitors have quite a trip every time they click an option and then have to scroll.

Hmmm... I'm a bit surprised by this point. I'd always thought that left hand navigation was the more accepted norm (blogs aside) than right hand navigation and that the Poynter Institute eyemapping research re-affirmed that the top and left was where a user's eye tended to focus. I don't really understand the point about scrolling - surely this would be the same whether it's on the right or the left, or have I missed something?

If you can guarantee all of your content being displayed above the fold then keep to the left.

I guess that depends on the resolution being used. As it stands at the moment, most of the navigation appears above the fold on 1024x768 (and certainly the key components such as information on the accommodation) but this kind of 'goes out of the window' if people click on certain sections of the site (eg. Kendal) and it brings up all the sub-navigation within.

Love the way that you've grouped your navigational elements by context - very good! However, it would benefit more from some subtle CSS to distinguish mouseovers etc

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm not sure how easy that it is for me to implement with the current set-up but certainly worth some thought.

The site on the whole looks a bit odd being over on the left with all that white space. If you don't have the 'right' design and layout I think the content can get lost in too much white space.

So do you think it should be centred also?

Love the logo!

Thanks! I'll take that as a compliment. I've always liked your logos!

Thanks for the feedback, Garri.

RE the information. I do not know many of us on this forum who add so much detail of our past history.

I'd welcome more comments on this. I personally don't feel there's anything all that superfluous in there. We're just telling people that we've experience of the local tourist industry, that we live and work in the town (I think guests often like to hear that the owners are on hand if needed) and that I've prior experience in self-catering at the top end of the market.

I would imagine many owners don't put this kind of information in their sites, but then I would also imagine that many don't provide information on every restaurant, café and bar in the vicinity too, with pictures, etc. We're trying to offer something more than just a basic 5-page site.

I done some delving by simply looking for plumbers in Kendal (as an example) none of the websites I found gave company numbers. Now that means that either they are not VAT registered or it is not a law.

...or that they are in breach of the law. The law came into place in January 2007, I think, and I believe many are not aware of it and that it's not really being enforced.

From http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/compan ... 2008.shtml

What do I need to display in my business letters, orders and websites?
The company name, number, place of registration, and its registered office address.

Maybe someone with a different web browser does not find your tariff information so confusing as I do. I am using Firefox BTW.

No, I agree this needs some work. I'll look into how I can make it better. Thanks.

I have just seen on the tariffs page you have listed the week beginning the 26 November, twice.

Thanks... well spotted! I'll have that corrected for the next upload.

[kendalcottages]

Kendal Cottages has opted for vertical navigation and there are techniques to give this impact and still retain the white space.

Would you mind expanding on that, Garri...? Thank you!

[paolo]

I may be locked in the past but it seems to me that a navigation bar on the left is still acceptable. Works OK on the sites I use the most, like BBC News and Amazon.

[Garri]

I may be locked in the past but it seems to me that a navigation bar on the left is still acceptable. Works OK on the sites I use the most, like BBC News and Amazon.

Yes, but think how better those sites would be if they moved them over to the right. I didn't say it was unacceptable, just not efficient. Although I use both of those sites, I do not enjoy the experience of either.

Amazon should know better, as the left navigation holds the ability to filter results, and after we filter results we then move right across the screen to scroll through the results, and so on and so on. I tolerate this because I've had an account with them since 1997 and their service is top notch.

@Kendal...

- Scrolling: Sure it's the same whether on right or left but if on the right we have less screenspace to travel across to when we click on nav items and then traverse our way through the content.

- Eyemapping: read this: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/reading_pattern.html

- Resolution: I know what you're saying but you have no control on how your content looks on the screens of those people who have tons of toolbars. A lot of PCs for example, come pre-loaded with proprietary toolbars in the browser and many people do not know how to, or daren't, get rid of them.

- Design techniques: Have you tried looking through some of the many great CSS gallery websites for ideas and inspiration? Here's a couple of sites I use:

http://www.grid-based.com/

http://patterntap.com/

And in particular: http://patterntap.com/tap/collection/navigation

There's loads of inspiration in these 2 sites alone.

P.S. You only have a company number if you are registered as a limited company. Sole traders, as I suspect many plumbers will be, do not require a company number, though they may need to be VAT registered if turnover is higher than 65k per year. VAT registration numbers and company numbers are not the same thing.

[CSE]

Paolo uses the BBC as an example of left hand navigation. But that site is still centred on my screen.

Kendalcottages thanks for the link about company house. It does seem as if most websites including the BBC ignore this rule.

[kendalcottages]

Thanks for those links, Garri... a little 'out of my league' design-wise are my initial thoughts, but plenty of food for thought there and lots for me to try and get my head around.

casasantoestevo... I'm not sure the BBC counts as a company. There is BBC Worldwide Ltd. which is a commercial subsidiary of the BBC (I think it deals with the license fees, etc.) and they do comply at the bottom of http://www.bbcworldwide.com/about-us.aspx

[Garri]

Although this article was published yesterday, it has only just come to my attention today via Twitter.

A new global visual language for the BBC's digital services

A massive redesign of the BBC website is on the cards. This quote caught my eye: We're moving away from left hand navigation to consistently placed, horizontal navigation across the site.

They've hired one of my graphic design heroes Neville Brody for the task. Nice to see our license fee being put to good use.

Now, all I need is for Amazon to hire him when he's done with the BBC.

[marcus]

I also don't much like left vertical navigation but how about this for a good example, got potential I think, even for a holiday rental property if a few photos were thrown in, and it would be (reasonably) simple to do something similar.

[Garri]

Marcus, that example has too many nav links, so if someone has let's say 5 toolbars in their browser's chrome, then the latter options could disappear below the fold. Too risky.

For that reason, I've made a mental note not to hire to these guys to 'design' any of my websites.

The case against vertical navigation is brilliantly expressed by this Smashing Magazine article.

'Design Should be Based on Careful Content Analysis' - this is where, I feel, a lot of people get it wrong. I should say that I don't always get it right myself either, but I'm willing and eager to learn. This article provides much food for thought.

Note: This article provoked me to reconsider my intended redesign for Holiday Pad to the extent that I scrapped it totally. Not because it wasn't any good, but because it didn't suit the content and lost sight of its purpose.