Would anyone mind taking a look at our website?

[HenryG]

The advantage of tables is that it won't break under different resolutions, different browsers or operating systems.

Evidence, please.

Design a tabled website, with no stylesheet.
Now test it on mobiles, ancient browsers, exotic operating systems.

It's safe, it will stretch, it will compress, it will render exactly the same throughout. It won't break future or past.

Now design your own very best website, table-less, but DIV-based and I will still find you a browser version, operating system or resolution, where the site will break very badly.


Until recently I didn't have Windows Vista or 7 to test websites. And my own site broke very badly on IE8 under Vista/7

Had the site been designed with tables + no CSS, sure it would be less accessible, non-compliant, and much heavier - but it wouldn't break under any circumstances whatsoever.

Ergo: Tables are OK, if trying to work with DIVs becomes way too painful

Agree about SEO, work on the content and make it readable for the user. Consider using bullet points on front page to highlight your property's key points etc. Then worry about SEO later, once you have well crafted copy to work with (and, when you know what you're doing)

As for SEO, we've signed up to this for all of our WordPress sites:

scribeseo.com

Text is everything IMO. 90% of SEO

Now I am a bit curious about WordPress, it is a table-less renderer - so I wonder if I can find an OS or browser version - where it breaks badly ..

[Garri]

Now I am a bit curious about WordPress, it is a table-less renderer - so I wonder if I can find an OS or browser version - where it breaks badly ..

WordPress is actually a very powerful cms, running many popular websites. There are plugins which can make your site render correctly on iPhones and other mobiles. If you know what you're doing, and choose the right theme, it has some very tasty SEO elements built in.

This tables vs divs and css debate is old hat and these days we have modern browsers. Sure, your design may break in IE6 but now that Google will stop supporting that awful browser we can move on.

We're going to be moving on very rapidly with HTML5 and CSS3 and already there are techniques and services enabling us to use our own fonts when designing websites, such as Typekit etc.

There are many templates out there which are proven to work cross-platform and cross-browser, so just choose an appropriate one that fits your content (easily said than done, as I see many people choosing the wrong template)

Why try to reinvent the wheel?

[HenryG]

@Garri

I've tested WP - have to say, that software is pretty impressive. I only found it to break under MSN TV Viewer but that is pushing things way too far. Even on Netscape 4.7 it didn't look too bad when I was pretty sure things would break

OK,

If someone is hand coding their site, and have not mastered DIV/CSS - AND still need the site up and running fast - - then I still would suggest for them to stick with tables.

They could also try a CMS / blogging software then WordPress.

I personally prefer hand-coding, as I find it way more effective SEO-wise.

[Garri]

Well, just look at the sites using WordPress, I'm sure they couldn't give a damn if their sites do not render on MSN TV or Netscape 4.7

Some couldn't even give a damn if their sites render on IE6.

I personally prefer hand-coding, as I find it way more effective SEO-wise.

In the case of WP, all theme are hand-coded and as I said, some themes come with SEO goodies built in that even you would struggle to compete with.

[HenryG]

In the case of WP, all theme are hand-coded and as I said, some themes come with SEO goodies built in that even you would struggle to compete with.

I worry about that constantly ...

People achieving excellent SEO results, with no sweat? Not fair !

[Garri]

People achieving excellent SEO results, with no sweat? Not fair !

No, don't get me wrong, there's still some effort and skill required but it's all done in an 'efficient' framework within the 'table-less renderer' known as WordPress.

[HenryG]

yourlamanga should use WordPress - best solution all round.

[yourlamanga]

Hi Guys

Lots of points raised here, i'll try and address them in one go:

1) Re "Google does not use meta-tags" I maybe should have said "Keywords". Some SEO guys believe this too i.e

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/keywords- ... eb-search/

2) Geo-Tags, Google may not use them just now but certainly Bing does. There's evidence that Google may use them more-so in the future. Having said that, if I type in "Taxi" to Google, how come I get local taxi companies, how does it know where I live?

3) This ones for Henry G! I use Dreamweaver. I intend to move most pages over to DIV tags. I think that if there are simple a few paragraphs then DIV tags could be the answer but for tabular data i.e this page:

http://www.yourlamanga.com/la_manga_clu ... eather.php
I would use a table for best presentation.

I know little about wordpress so could do with some help: How do I deploy wordpress i.e what software do I need? How easy is it to use?

[HenryG]

@yourlamanga

If you use Dreamweaver - you will find WordPress a breeze.

It's not for me - because I like things very low level, ie re-inventing the wheel, that sort of thing. But I still had a good play with it, very impressive good stuff. Also according to Garri there are loads of SEO plugins available out there, so you can concentrate more on the context and presentation and allow for SEO tweakings for later.

1) Re "Google does not use meta-tags" I maybe should have said "Keywords". Some SEO guys believe this too i.e

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/keywords- ... eb-search/

Meta Tags - Description is very Important! It may have no impact on SEO, but it has on conversions.

Since it is the snippet Google may choose to add, to describe your site on the search results - so I think of it as a mini-ad, which has to be just right.

Meta Tags - Keywords is NOT Important. But I add it anyway. Old habits die hard.

2) Geo-Tags, Google may not use them just now but certainly Bing does. There's evidence that Google may use them more-so in the future. Having said that, if I type in "Taxi" to Google, how come I get local taxi companies, how does it know where I live?

I would consider also adding Microformats.

http://microformats.org/

Your suggestion on Geo-Tags is a very good one. I am going to look into that now and apply it in future.

3) This ones for Henry G! I use Dreamweaver. I intend to move most pages over to DIV tags. I think that if there are simple a few paragraphs then DIV tags could be the answer but for tabular data

Using table for data is the right thing to do.

[esentziak]

Hello Garri

re:
In the case of WP, all theme are hand-coded and as I said, some themes come with SEO goodies built in that even you would struggle to compete with.

Do you have any practical advice on how to choose such a template or websites offering them ?

Thanks

Dominique

[Garri]

Hello Garri

Do you have any practical advice on how to choose such a template or websites offering them ?

Yes, the Thesis theme is one such beast: http://diythemes.com

Click the drop down entitled 'Here’s why Thesis rules for SEO and design flexibility' and you'll see a video explaining why it can be important to have clean code in terms of search engines etc.

I have a few issues with Thesis, one of which is that it contravenes the open-source GPL which WordPress itself is governed by.

And, most of the sites I see using it tend to be blogs, and pretty dull design-wise, but that's not a fault of Thesis.

That said, it is a very powerful framework and well supported by the theme's author, Chris Pearson. It's also worth noting that Brian Clark, copyblogger.com, is co-founder.

But to get the most out of it, and indeed WP, you will still need to know what you're doing in terms of getting it to look the way you want, which is where html/css, not to mention design skills, will come into play.

I'm releasing a new website, a niche accommodation site, at the end of March and have decided to use Thesis as the basis but with a totally different look and feel. You wouldn't know it was using Thesis or even WP.

The decision to use Thesis was based on many factors, SEO being one of them. The other reasons I can't go into here, sorry.

[Windy]

Another option is to us the Atahualpa Theme

http://wordpress.bytesforall.com/?page_id=40

It is free (donation appreciated by the author), well supported, highly configurable and has some nice bells and whistles

I've use it for my own blog at

http://www.windermerelodge.co.uk/wp

for awhole website at

http://www.lakedistrictcabin.co.uk/

[Garri]

1) Re "Google does not use meta-tags" I maybe should have said "Keywords". Some SEO guys believe this too i.e

Yes, I guessed that is what you meant (see my earlier comment)

2) Geo-Tags, Google may not use them just now but certainly Bing does. There's evidence that Google may use them more-so in the future. Having said that, if I type in "Taxi" to Google, how come I get local taxi companies, how does it know where I live?

Perhaps it's taking it from your IP?

I think there's strong evidence that Google will use geotags as it fits in nicely with Google Maps and search in general. Are they not using them now? I'm surprised about that.

http://www.yourlamanga.com/la_manga_clu ... eather.php
I would use a table for best presentation.

Yes, tables are best for tabular data such as tariffs etc.

Remember, the concept of using tables for precise positioning in web design is an old one born out of a few constraints such as earlier versions of html/css and poor browser rendering.

The other alternative was to use proprietary technology such as Flash.

This started to change when 'web standards' came into play around 2004(?) and with the advent of 'modern' browsers such as Firefox.

We've come a long way since then.

I know little about wordpress so could do with some help: How do I deploy wordpress i.e what software do I need? How easy is it to use?

You'd need to read all about it on their site, but websites are easy to deploy once you've created a database (not as complicated as it sounds)

Software? WordPress is the software. It's open-source and free.

Although you can run it on a Windows server, it's native environment is LAMP ( Linux, Apache, MySql, Php)

Many web hosts these days offer what they call 'one click' installs where you can install open-source software on your server directly from your host account. You will still need to create your database, which again can be done via your host's admin panel. The biggest challenge you'll have doing this is thinking of a username and password!

[esentziak]

Thanks Garri and Windy

will have a look at the website you mention

Dominique

[Garri]

I've spoken before about the SEO advantages of using WordPress to run websites, not just blogs, and this article from the horse's mouth pretty much encapsulates it very well:

http://codex.wordpress.org/Search_Engin ... _Wordpress

Tons of useful resources in the above link.