"our site came - along with Lay My Hat and all my posts on it"
Crikey, Jane - that must have got your goat.
Holiday-rentals
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Giddy Goat
- Posts: 9054
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:38 am
- Location: UK
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....I was saving that line to use myself!
Oh well, serves me right for acting the goat. I'll just have to behave myself in future.
A: are you off to gather more olives today?
Oh well, serves me right for acting the goat. I'll just have to behave myself in future.
A: are you off to gather more olives today?
Last edited by Giddy Goat on Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Hi Brooke,
I was under the impression we had had a discussion rather than an argument. Perhaps next time we should employ the six hats methodology! Anyway, for the record, it isn’t for the money, or at least not for the £30 we charge for an external link.
As the custodians of HolidayLets we aim to provide a professional, effective resource that drives holidaymakers to your properties which ultimately results in bookings for you. To do so, we have a templated representation of the properties, which we believe provides sufficient information to give the holidaymaker a good overall impression of the property. If interested, the holidaymaker contacts the owner via email form or phone.
Having said that, if I were a holidaymaker and having found a suitable property on HolidayLets, would I like a follow on link to the owner’s own site site? Of course I would. By definition, it’s going to contain more information than provided on HolidayLets.
Unfortunately, life isn’t that simple and I also have to consider what’s good for the site as well as the Owners. With this in mind, I am guided by the experience of the last three years. There are many examples of owners doing well on the site, then purchasing a link to their own sites, only for this to be followed by complaints of the downturn in enquiries from HolidayLets.
Brooke, whereas you are obviously very good in tracking where your leads come from, others are not. This makes it difficult for us to track the true effectiveness of the site and more importantly, makes it difficult to persuade these people to renew their subscriptions. For these reasons, we do not encourage people to link to their own sites.
However, we also like to consider ourselves a customer focussed organisation, so we do occasionally listen to what you have to say. Consequently, rather than ban all links, (which was considered) we decided to charge for them. This would have the effect of discouraging those Owners who didn’t feel strongly about them but also providing a solution for those who did. We believe this to be a fair, win/win scenario.
Regards,
[Edited in line with forum guidelines]
I was under the impression we had had a discussion rather than an argument. Perhaps next time we should employ the six hats methodology! Anyway, for the record, it isn’t for the money, or at least not for the £30 we charge for an external link.
As the custodians of HolidayLets we aim to provide a professional, effective resource that drives holidaymakers to your properties which ultimately results in bookings for you. To do so, we have a templated representation of the properties, which we believe provides sufficient information to give the holidaymaker a good overall impression of the property. If interested, the holidaymaker contacts the owner via email form or phone.
Having said that, if I were a holidaymaker and having found a suitable property on HolidayLets, would I like a follow on link to the owner’s own site site? Of course I would. By definition, it’s going to contain more information than provided on HolidayLets.
Unfortunately, life isn’t that simple and I also have to consider what’s good for the site as well as the Owners. With this in mind, I am guided by the experience of the last three years. There are many examples of owners doing well on the site, then purchasing a link to their own sites, only for this to be followed by complaints of the downturn in enquiries from HolidayLets.
Brooke, whereas you are obviously very good in tracking where your leads come from, others are not. This makes it difficult for us to track the true effectiveness of the site and more importantly, makes it difficult to persuade these people to renew their subscriptions. For these reasons, we do not encourage people to link to their own sites.
However, we also like to consider ourselves a customer focussed organisation, so we do occasionally listen to what you have to say. Consequently, rather than ban all links, (which was considered) we decided to charge for them. This would have the effect of discouraging those Owners who didn’t feel strongly about them but also providing a solution for those who did. We believe this to be a fair, win/win scenario.
Regards,
[Edited in line with forum guidelines]
Ross Hugo
Ross,
Thanks for such a detailed post! I didn't mean to imply by using the word "argument" that you were anything but professional and courteous when we talked about external links.
I do plan to try again with Holiday Lets, and it's just about time to set up the trial to coincide with the high booking season. I really, really liked the way the site was set up -- the management of the availability calendar in particular was so easy -- and I liked the look and feel, too. Hopefully this year a good level of useful inquiries will go with the good site!
Of course, you've got your work cut out for you, since I've already booked a lot of our season, and since if I remember correctly, external links are not allowed during the free trial period...
Thanks for such a detailed post! I didn't mean to imply by using the word "argument" that you were anything but professional and courteous when we talked about external links.
I do plan to try again with Holiday Lets, and it's just about time to set up the trial to coincide with the high booking season. I really, really liked the way the site was set up -- the management of the availability calendar in particular was so easy -- and I liked the look and feel, too. Hopefully this year a good level of useful inquiries will go with the good site!
Of course, you've got your work cut out for you, since I've already booked a lot of our season, and since if I remember correctly, external links are not allowed during the free trial period...
Brooke
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Normandy Cow
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
- Location: Normandy
- Contact:
Ross,
I previously had a trial period with HolidayLets, but I can't remember exactly when it was. I seem to remember that I didn't get a huge response and that was why I didn't extend to a fully paid ad.
I've just done a Google search for Holiday Cottages Normandy and HolidayLets is now number 2!
Is it possible to have another trial period? If I tried again at this time of the year then it would be over the peak period so would probably be more successful... And if it is, then I promise that this time I will convert to being a paid customer
Just one question though - How are the properties presented in the search results? Are they always in the same order, or is it done by last calendar update date or some other means?
I previously had a trial period with HolidayLets, but I can't remember exactly when it was. I seem to remember that I didn't get a huge response and that was why I didn't extend to a fully paid ad.
I've just done a Google search for Holiday Cottages Normandy and HolidayLets is now number 2!
Is it possible to have another trial period? If I tried again at this time of the year then it would be over the peak period so would probably be more successful... And if it is, then I promise that this time I will convert to being a paid customer
Just one question though - How are the properties presented in the search results? Are they always in the same order, or is it done by last calendar update date or some other means?
Brooke/Catherine,
I’m afraid the bad news is we only allow one free trial per owner.
In fact, we’re seriously considering putting an end to the free trial altogether. The logic is as follows: For Owners who sign up for the year, we have a subscription renewal rate approaching 80%, so we know it must work for these people over the full year cycle. However, for Free Trialists, we have a much lower sign up rate. Some of this can be explained by the fact that it can take 3 months for individual property pages to be indexed by Google, and Owner’s start to get a better response after this has happened. It also covers the full booking cycle, including both good and bad times, whereas if somebody signs up for their free trial in a slow period they might end up with a false impression of the effectiveness of the site. I accept the opposite may also be true. In the end, we won't sign as many people up in the first place but we'll probably retain a lot more in the long run.
Anyway, if you do decide to sign up (and we would be delighted to have you), I’m sure we can work something out with regards a link to your sites
Kind regards,
Ross
By the way Catherine, we did manage to get you 10 booking enquiries during your free trial earlier in the year.
I’m afraid the bad news is we only allow one free trial per owner.
In fact, we’re seriously considering putting an end to the free trial altogether. The logic is as follows: For Owners who sign up for the year, we have a subscription renewal rate approaching 80%, so we know it must work for these people over the full year cycle. However, for Free Trialists, we have a much lower sign up rate. Some of this can be explained by the fact that it can take 3 months for individual property pages to be indexed by Google, and Owner’s start to get a better response after this has happened. It also covers the full booking cycle, including both good and bad times, whereas if somebody signs up for their free trial in a slow period they might end up with a false impression of the effectiveness of the site. I accept the opposite may also be true. In the end, we won't sign as many people up in the first place but we'll probably retain a lot more in the long run.
Anyway, if you do decide to sign up (and we would be delighted to have you), I’m sure we can work something out with regards a link to your sites
Kind regards,
Ross
By the way Catherine, we did manage to get you 10 booking enquiries during your free trial earlier in the year.
Ross Hugo
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Normandy Cow
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
- Location: Normandy
- Contact:
10 enquiries, but no bookings 
I've just looked back over my emails and could find only 8, not 10. Only 5 of them were genuine enquiries, the other 3 were a Nigerian scam, an error, and a duplicate...
Ross - Before I could commit myself to sign up with you for a year, I would need to know how my property would be indexed within Normandy. If I am constantly going to be on a lower page then it doesn't interest me (sorry).
If, on the other hand, you have some way of allowing owners to go to the top of the list occasionally (like VF and HR do, and FC USED to do), then I may be tempted.
Please advise.
Thanks!
I've just looked back over my emails and could find only 8, not 10. Only 5 of them were genuine enquiries, the other 3 were a Nigerian scam, an error, and a duplicate...
Ross - Before I could commit myself to sign up with you for a year, I would need to know how my property would be indexed within Normandy. If I am constantly going to be on a lower page then it doesn't interest me (sorry).
If, on the other hand, you have some way of allowing owners to go to the top of the list occasionally (like VF and HR do, and FC USED to do), then I may be tempted.
Please advise.
Thanks!
Hi Catherine,
The results are returned with highest sleeping capacity first. Within any capacity, the order is then determined by who has updated their availability calendar. This is re-calculated every night.
So if somebody is searching for a cottage in Normandy that sleeps 8, and you regularly keep your availability calendar up to date, you should appear near the top of the search results.
Hope that helps.
Kind regards,
Ross
The results are returned with highest sleeping capacity first. Within any capacity, the order is then determined by who has updated their availability calendar. This is re-calculated every night.
So if somebody is searching for a cottage in Normandy that sleeps 8, and you regularly keep your availability calendar up to date, you should appear near the top of the search results.
Hope that helps.
Kind regards,
Ross
Ross Hugo
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
I can't work this out at all. I ask other owners about various Property Listing sites and I finish with a "bag of worms". Some say that site A is fantastic; others say that site A is rubbish.
My gut feeling is that a site offering a free period is getting desperate to attract advertisers. Not wanting to be antagonistic but, by the same token, my gut feeling is that owners wanting free periods are getting desperate to sell their properties.
I think the way to go is to pick a few sites and at the end of the year stay with those which have produced and drop the rest. Replace those you have dropped with others and repeat the process at the end of the next year. By all means try the free offers. Don’t expect much but you might be surprised. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" could be your moto.
Alan
My gut feeling is that a site offering a free period is getting desperate to attract advertisers. Not wanting to be antagonistic but, by the same token, my gut feeling is that owners wanting free periods are getting desperate to sell their properties.
I think the way to go is to pick a few sites and at the end of the year stay with those which have produced and drop the rest. Replace those you have dropped with others and repeat the process at the end of the next year. By all means try the free offers. Don’t expect much but you might be surprised. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" could be your moto.
Alan
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Giddy Goat
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Fluffs, I feel I have to step in and defend Holiday-Lets and others who are offering free trials; H-L is a very attractive site, its staff impress me as being sincere and pro-active in terms of working to bring in results for advertisers, and, as any conscientious and ambitious company would do, they're seeking to expand, in an increasingly competitive market. Holiday Rentals have a different approach to the same end, it would seem - they're offering a money back guarantee. They're hardly desperate, but they do what they can to maintain their position in the hierarchy. Law practices can't have special offers of this kind to bring in business, but I bet they'd love to! Instead they have to be more covert - corporate entertainment springs to mind.
I have signed up for 3 free trials - not because I'm desperate, certainly not as far as next summer goes (we have 3 weeks remaining for the June - end Aug period) but because I'm keen to spread the net as widely as possible to pick up those more elusive bookings outside the main letting period. Our house accommodates 8, so largely attracts families, ergo school holiday bookings.
My impression, from exploring this fun and informative site for a few months now, is that for France, eg, there are consistent reports about the same two or three sites, not conflicting ones.
Your longterm strategy is absolutely right, nevertheless.
I have signed up for 3 free trials - not because I'm desperate, certainly not as far as next summer goes (we have 3 weeks remaining for the June - end Aug period) but because I'm keen to spread the net as widely as possible to pick up those more elusive bookings outside the main letting period. Our house accommodates 8, so largely attracts families, ergo school holiday bookings.
My impression, from exploring this fun and informative site for a few months now, is that for France, eg, there are consistent reports about the same two or three sites, not conflicting ones.
Your longterm strategy is absolutely right, nevertheless.
Last edited by Giddy Goat on Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
I think this is right, Alan. I do recommend making use of the holidaylets trial because they are one of the 'proper' sites and you are getting 3 months of 'proper' advertising for free, which you can time around your peak booking time.Alan Knighting wrote:I think the way to go is to pick a few sites and at the end of the year stay with those which have produced and drop the rest. Replace those you have dropped with others and repeat the process at the end of the next year. By all means try the free offers. Don’t expect much but you might be surprised. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" could be your moto.
But I also think that Ross should put an end to the free trial for the reasons he mentions above. It sounds like he would get enough people just signing up for the year as their trial of the site, and this would give them a truer idea of the site's effectiveness for their property.
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Personally, I have three sites which are generating a decent number of bookings. I would never advertise with an additional site unless a free offer period, or money back guarantee was offered. Hence my trial with HR.
The reason why Holidaylets gets less custom from its free trial offers is that these are most likely to appeal to those who already advertise, and are happy with, other sites and therefore don't want to jump in quickly with full payment.
Quite simply, unlesss HL gets more enquiries/bookings during the trial period than the other sites already used, they will be dropped as they are not adding sufficient value.
A free trial period is expensive marketing if attracting new owners/advertisers. However, it is probably the only way of attracting/switching people from other sites with which they are happy - unless, like Alan, the owners have the patience to do an annual check.
So, as usual, for the advertising site segment your audience. To switch people from your competition use free offers and money back. ONLY target these customers with this offer.
The reason why Holidaylets gets less custom from its free trial offers is that these are most likely to appeal to those who already advertise, and are happy with, other sites and therefore don't want to jump in quickly with full payment.
Quite simply, unlesss HL gets more enquiries/bookings during the trial period than the other sites already used, they will be dropped as they are not adding sufficient value.
A free trial period is expensive marketing if attracting new owners/advertisers. However, it is probably the only way of attracting/switching people from other sites with which they are happy - unless, like Alan, the owners have the patience to do an annual check.
So, as usual, for the advertising site segment your audience. To switch people from your competition use free offers and money back. ONLY target these customers with this offer.
Sometimes i sits and thinks - and sometimes i just sits...
That would be me.The reason why Holidaylets gets less custom from its free trial offers is that these are most likely to appeal to those who already advertise, and are happy with, other sites and therefore don't want to jump in quickly with full payment.
When I said I would try again, I thought Ross was inviting me to try another free three months. I would do that again and I would then pay for the year if the results were good.But last year my free trial was not very productive at all -- I think I had only a few inquiries at most. So what on earth would motivate me to pay for a full year which, unless something has changed drastically, would not give me any (or enough) bookings? I'm definitely not going to spend that kind of money when I already do pretty well from my other listing sites.
Sorry, Ross -- I really do love the look and feel and ease of use of Holiday Lets. But I have to go where I know the bookings are.
Brooke
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Jane,
I'm not attacking Letting Sites and I'm not attacking owners. I'm being extreme simply, just to make a point. I only use the word "desperate" to focus attention, not to disparage.
Free periods are a good idea of attracting new customers to a site and free periods are a good way for customers to assess a site. If I was the proprietor of a new site or an expanding site I would undoubtedly include a free period in trying to attract business. If I was a new property owner I would to dip my toes into as many opportunities as possible because it could attract business.
What's that got to do with lettings? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything. It depends on your point of view.
Alan
I'm not attacking Letting Sites and I'm not attacking owners. I'm being extreme simply, just to make a point. I only use the word "desperate" to focus attention, not to disparage.
Free periods are a good idea of attracting new customers to a site and free periods are a good way for customers to assess a site. If I was the proprietor of a new site or an expanding site I would undoubtedly include a free period in trying to attract business. If I was a new property owner I would to dip my toes into as many opportunities as possible because it could attract business.
When I was a lawyer in the UK there was a rule which meant that I couldn’t legally offer “no win, no fee�; it was called champerty. The rule meant that I couldn’t legally assist another in a legal action. The effect of the rule was that many people couldn’t get their rights because they couldn’t afford it and neither I nor my firm believed that was fair or equitable. Unknown to the authorities of the time we funded many tens of thousands of cases on that basis. None of those clients paid a penny, the majority of those clients got what they were entitled to and we ran a successful business. As lawyers we believed in what we were doing; to the extent that we invested £1.8m of our own money in the exercise.Law practices can't have special offers of this kind to bring in business, but I bet they'd love to!
What's that got to do with lettings? Perhaps nothing, perhaps everything. It depends on your point of view.
Alan