Public Liability Insurance

[Linda Freese]

I have just had an email from a potential guest who refuses to sign our terms and conditions because they contain the following clause:

Travel Insurance: We strongly recommend that you take out comprehensive travel insurance. This can save you much heartache and money, if, for example, you should need to cancel the holiday at a later date. All party members should have insurance cover for personal belongings and public liability, as these are not covered by the owners insurance. The owners do not accept any liability for any losses that may be incurred for which insurance is available. If you are a UK resident, please ensure you bring a fully completed E111 in case of medical emergencies

He says that we should have public liability insurance as the owners. I don´t think that this is correct but if anyone could guide me on this and let me know how I should respond, I would be grateful! Personally, I think this is an error and it should read personal liability insurance (I borrowed t&c from another owner!).

I await your advice!

Thanks

Linda

[Jo Tomkinson]

Hi Linda,

Your terms and conditions are fine, recommending people have travel insurance. However, he is right about public liability insurance as guests would not be able to get this as this is something a property owner would provide in the event an injury or death was caused by something faulty in your property. Therefore suggest you take "public liability" out of your terms and conditions.

Jo

[gh]

Travel Insurance: We strongly recommend that you take out comprehensive travel insurance.

Linda we have this in our +Booking Conditions+

1) The property known as... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

5) Subject to Clauses 2 & 3 above, in the event of a non-insurable cancellation, refunds of amounts paid will be made if the Owner is able to re-let the property, and any expenses incurred in so doing will be deducted from the refundable amount. The Client is strongly recommended to arrange a comprehensive travel insurance policy (including cancellation cover)and to have full cover for the party's personal belongings, since these are not covered by the owners insurance.


Received no negative feedback. Can e-mail full copy if you wish.

Regards Johnel

[Linda Freese]

However, he is right about public liability insurance as guests would not be able to get this as this is something a property owner would provide in the event an injury or death was caused by something faulty in your property.

Thanks for your responses. My question now is, do other owners take out public liability insurance? I would have thought that this would be an insurance cover that is normally taken out for large properties such as hotels, but not a one bedroom apartment!

Linda

[Clexane]

Linda,

If your house/apartment is insured you may find you already have this cover ...

[marcus]

We have full public liability insurance, and were told we had to as part of renting out a property. This means the insurance for our gite, unoccupied for large parts of the year and with less valuables than a 'real' house, is materially more expensive than the insurance we paid when we occupied the same property as a house.

It seems reasonable in principle that if a holidaymaker is injured due to your negligence, for example, that they would seek damages from you rather than their own insurers. In any event their own insurers would presumably claim against you and your insurers if a claim was made, so you should get insurance for your own peace of mind

Incidentally people with a holiday house that they rent out to friends and occasional holidaymakers should check out their insurance position carefully.

[A-two]

Linda,
I agree with the other responses, and would strongly recommend you phone your insurance broker first thing on Monday morning as a matter of priority and think of a few "what if" scenarios in the meantime that you could discuss. It's important to know where you stand.

The only difference between an accident happening in your private home and that same accident happening in a public place is the name of the owner who will get sued. The liability is the same. Liability Insurance covers you (personally) against other people, (which means anybody that isn't you), suing you in the event of an accident such as a "slip and fall".

It also doesn't matter what you put in the Lease, sorry to disappoint you, it's not worth the paper it's written on to you, only to your insurance company, who may then be able to recoup some of their losses from the other party's insurers. Anyone inclined to sue you will do so anyway, and whether or not you are liable is a matter of case law, regardless of what you have asked them to sign in your lease.

Having said that, I do have some wording in my lease regarding insurance which was drafted by my attorney to mitigate possible claims, but it would not be useful to anyone here whose lease is not governed by New York State Law.

P.S. Marcus, an empty property is deemed a much higher insurance risk than an occupied one, so that would account for an increase in premium since it is no longer your principal home.

[PeeJay]

Hi Linda

We have the following clause in our booking conditions.

All clients must, as a booking condition, have arranged their own comprehensive travel insurance, to include full cancellation cover, full sickness and health cover and all other insurances in advance prior to departure, and for all the parties personal belongings, third party and public liability etc. since this is not covered by the owners or the Los Diamantes III Community insurances.

In addition we also require that

A NAMED RESPONSIBLE ADULT OVER THE AGE OF 21
MUST BE STATED ON THE BOOKING FORM:

It must be noted, and is a condition of the booking, that all clients are deemed to have accepted the above terms and conditions and shall take full responsibility for there own well-being, health and safety at all times and the Named Responsible Adult shall accept all liabilities for any and all losses, damages or injuries to themselves or any other third parties.

It is entirely in order in my view. The renters of a holiday home have a third party and public liability if they cause injury or loss to any other persons, resident or guest, just has they would have if they rented a home in the UK or anywhere else for that matter, so they are well advised to arrange their own personal cover. If they do not agree to the terms then their booking would be cancelled.

Notwithstanding this we also have arranged are own personal public liability cover as well which is provided by a specialist UK insurer and is a £2 million pound cover included as part of our holiday home contents insurance cover.

The building structure cover is with our Spanish bank but the public liability cover provided by them was very limited and in our view not very satisfactory.

Peter

[Alan Knighting]

Peter,

I think the point Joanna is making is that, in many legal systems you as the owner have a liability to the public at large for your acts or omissions and the law does not allow you to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow you to assign your liability to someone else, no matter what you may include in a contract.

Supplemental to that is the liabilty to the public at large a guest has for his acts or omissions. Equally, the law does not allow him to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow him to assign his liability to someone else, no matter what he may include in a contract.

In many legal systems a member of the public has an inalienable right of action against the property owner although the property owner may then have a right of action against the guest in respect of the guest's acts or omissions.

The bottom line is that all parties should be fully insured for their individual liabilities and you right in insisting that guests have all necessary insurance. That still does not obviate your liability as the property owner.

Alan

[PeeJay]

Peter,

I think the point Joanna is making is that, in many legal systems you as the owner have a liability to the public at large for your acts or omissions and the law does not allow you to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow you to assign your liability to someone else, no matter what you may include in a contract.

Supplemental to that is the liabilty to the public at large a guest has for his acts or omissions. Equally, the law does not allow him to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow him to assign his liability to someone else, no matter what he may include in a contract.

In many legal systems a member of the public has an inalienable right of action against the property owner although the property owner may then have a right of action against the guest in respect of the guest's acts or omissions.

The bottom line is that all parties should be fully insured for their individual liabilities and you right in insisting that guests have all necessary insurance. That still does not obviate your liability as the property owner.
Alan

Agreed... that is what I was trying to say and why we also carry adequate third party liability cover but we also insist that our guests do likewise.

[A-two]

Peter,

I think the point Joanna is making is that, in many legal systems you as the owner have a liability to the public at large for your acts or omissions and the law does not allow you to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow you to assign your liability to someone else, no matter what you may include in a contract.

Supplemental to that is the liabilty to the public at large a guest has for his acts or omissions. Equally, the law does not allow him to avoid or shed that liability and it does not allow him to assign his liability to someone else, no matter what he may include in a contract.

In many legal systems a member of the public has an inalienable right of action against the property owner although the property owner may then have a right of action against the guest in respect of the guest's acts or omissions.

The bottom line is that all parties should be fully insured for their individual liabilities and you right in insisting that guests have all necessary insurance. That still does not obviate your liability as the property owner.

Alan

Alan,
I completely agree. The Landlord and Tenant must maintain appropriate insurance for their respective interests in the premises and property located on the Premises. However, irrespective of any remedies expressly provided for in the lease or otherwise available at law or in equity, each party can be expected to exercise good faith and to use their best efforts to mitigate damages which may occur as a result of the other parties default. That's the approach we prefer to take because it assumes the best of everyone, yet protects against the worst without hiding anything.

I don't consider a tenant's travel insurance, cancellation insurance, health insurance or insurance for their possessions to be any of my business; my property is not adversely affected by those losses, neither am I their mother. It's their call to decide whether to insure against those risks or take 100% of the loss if something unexpected occurs.

[Alan Knighting]

Joanna,

I encourage my guests to arrange their own insurance, not for my good but for theirs. So many people these days seem to think that no matter what happens someone else will indemnify them and it ain't so. For instance they want to cancel, for whatever reason, and they want their money back; well, they ain't going to get it if I can't re-let. It's their risk, not mine. They can cover it with insurance.

I fancy the people who don't take out insurance are the same people who leave your property looking like a bomb hit it. It's a trendy mind-set which I will not go along with.

Fortunately, we are talking about the minority but they do exist.

Alan

[paolo]

Oops, this thread went a bit haywire, I have deleted a few posts but hopefully not any good advice. Thanks, Alan, for your mediation. Now let's try again!

[Guest3]

Hi Linda

Checked out my insurance policy this morning with the Insurers. We have got Public Liability and apparently if you have a buildings insurance you should automatically have cover for public liability (the amounts insured depend on the insurer), our PL insurance is 3 million euros. Also, I was advised to get an Aquiler de Contracto, which you can get from any big Estanco. This is a legal document which you can purchase for long term rental or short term rental contracts (prices for each vary). This form has to be completed for each rental (so you can't buy one and photocopy it for other clients as it's a tri-ply form). Should a claim arise or if we had any problems with guests this document will hold up in court. The terms and conditions we've drawn up may not be valid in a court of law in Spain.

[Linda Freese]

This form has to be completed for each rental (so you can't buy one and photocopy it for other clients as it's a tri-ply form).

Thanks everyone for all your comments - very enlightening!

Crystal, do they sell this in English? I doubt very much our English speaking clientele will want to sign anything they don´t understand!

Thanks

Linda