Charging for changes

[altyfc]

I saw Paolo mention in another thread that French Connections charge for amendments made to an entry (at a time other than renewal).

We do the same on our UK self-catering site, and I wondered what people think about this. Every now and then, we get outraged cottage owners saying it's a disgrace that we charge for amendments, etc. and throwing their toys out of the pram over it, sometimes withdrawing membership.

The way I see it is very simple... we charge a modest fee each year, and that is for the advertisement itself. If you want to change the ad, it's going to take me time, or I'm going to pay for a member of staff's time. Hence the modest cost (our minimum charge time of £30). Is this not fair?

Is a better solution to estimate how many changes are likely to be required by everyone in the course of a year, and charge a different annual fee in accordance with that, and to not charge for amendments?

(We don't want to go down the route of allowing members to edit their own entries as this opens up a whole new can of worms - bad grammar, spelling, descriptions all in CAPS, etc.)

Aaron

[Alan Knighting]

Aaron,

I am going to be outspoken about this. In the interests of “keeping the peace� Paolo might modify or even delete this posting. He might also warn me about being stroppy.

Some people might not like what I have to say but I am one of those people who happen to agree with you. I am also one of those people who happily use French Connections because they produce results.

I negotiate with French Connections what my entry will be for the forthcoming year and I pay an annual fee for just that, and no more. Why should I expect amendments to be done for nothing? If I want my car modified do I expect the modifications to be done for nothing? No I do not! You charge for an amendment? - totally fair! Modifications done on a D.I.Y. basis will inevitably be a complete nightmare, for the reasons you give.

I think you are alluding to a modern disease – the “ought for nought� syndrome. The trouble is it’s a one-way principle - ask them for something for nothing and see how far you get.

I had a prime example of the disease a few years ago – pre Iraq and pre Bush. An American doing everyone a favour by coming to France on a six weeks art and culture course. He felt that he was at the hub of the world’s financial and political stability. He demanded landline telephone, mobile phone, satellite TV and 24/7 Internet links, all at my expense. He “threw his toys out of the pram� when I told him I would put in the facilities - but at his cost. The “ought for nought� syndrome! I think he stayed in Montana, he certainly didn’t arrive here. No disrespect to Americans. Those who we have had as guests have been nothing short of absolutely delightful.

Alan

[paolo]

Chaps,

The point I was making about French Connections was more to do with the way they have fallen behind. I don't expect to be able to make changes for free because that's not what they offer.

But I consider French Connections a major site, and all the other major sites I come across have an advertisers' area. There you can go and change every aspect of your ad. Descriptions, new amenities, rates, availability updates, even upload new photos.

With any site you agree to the terms and conditions. In those terms and conditions you agree not to misuse or spam the site - if you do your ad will be deleted and you will not get a refund. I have looked at many sites and read many ads, and I have never seen one that abuses the rules, or uses all caps.

I quite understand if you are a smaller, no-frills outfit, and don't charge very much, that your site wouldn't be fully automated, so you charge for changes. But if I were one of your advertisers I'm afraid I too would complain about £30 as a minimum fee. If changing a couple of words or a rate costs that much, what's the hourly rate for whoever is doing the work? It must be several hundred pounds!

French Connections charges the same as a site that has invested in a modern 'back-end', where the advertiser has complete control. I wish they would catch up.

In any case that isn't my main complaint about this company, it's the poor service you get as an advertiser. When I raise an issue with a site like vrbo, I get a same-day reply from people who really seem to care. FC - it's just silence unless you're persistent.

[Alan Knighting]

Paolo,

But I consider French Connections a major site, and all the other major sites I come across have an advertisers' area. There you can go and change every aspect of your ad. Descriptions, new amenities, rates, availability updates, even upload new photos.

I am not in any way defending French Connections. I have no “connections� with them other than an entry on their Website. Like you, I wish they would come up-to-date in some important respects.

By the way, I did what I said I would do - I sent them an e-mail this morning. Just over two hours later I had a personal reply. That doesn’t mean they will do anything but perhaps they are listening after all.

Alan

[Maggiem]

[/quote]By the way, I did what I said I would do - I sent them an e-mail this morning. Just over two hours later I had a personal reply. That doesn’t mean they will do anything but perhaps they are listening after all.[/quote]

In a way that's worse, isn't it? It shows that they can reply promptly on occasions, so does it mean that they just can't be a**** all the rest of the time? Just out of curiosity, was your reply from Gwen?
Maggie

[paolo]

Alan,

I think Maggie and I have been dealing with FC's 'head office' and you have a different contact and email address there. Perhaps that's why you get good service and we don't.

I've just been reminded of another grudge I hold against FC! This could run and run! When I started advertising online I wrote my ads and paid online, within 24 hours my ads were up and live, and I was getting enquiries. All except one company. With them I had to send in my cheque, email my descriptions and photos, and then wait a couple of weeks for them to get round to processing it. No prize for guessing who that was.

Let's not make a mountain of this, I don't have that big a problem with them, after all they're retained my custom this far.

[Darren]

Just to get back on topic

I personally disagree with charging clients money to amend their advertisement - but let's be honest many companies do, and I don't just mean holiday rental companies.

I can understand why companies would not want owners making amendments themself, there's nothing more annoying than noticing an amended ad that is completely written in capitals.

The other side of the coin is though is that you are not having to spend time making amendments, especially during peak periods where owners are updating rental rates - I would much prefer to spend time marketing properties than updating advertisements.

There's advantages and disadvantages on both sides, but I think the majority of owners prefer to manage the advert, rather than emailing and then waiting for it to be amended.

[Alan Knighting]

Maggie & Paolo,

I think you are both absolutely right. The level of response should be the same at all times, no matter whether the subject matter is “the good, the bad or the ugly�. It’s called service. We are all part of the service industry. It’s what is demanded of me, it is what I give and it is what I expect to get from others.

No, I don’t know who Gwen might be. My contact names are Susan and Duncan. They are local to me, not from “head office� (wherever that might be), and they are both very responsive and helpful. I suspect that FC is run on the lines of a franchise – could that be true?

FC should not take over any part of this Forum. Let’s put it to bed. It produces results but it ain’t perfect. There are so many much more interesting and important things to talk about.

Alan

[BungleBob]

Guys,

A few points from an "advertising service":

1) The market culture demands 24/7 editing
This has been the case for quite some time and is proven by the outrage felt by many owners when they encounter a service that charges for amendments. The ability to edit your ads online is an industry standard for rentals.

2) Editorial control isn't "a can of worms"
We're not a big firm by any stretch of the imagination - husband and wife dealing with around 800 ads and 500 advertisers plus the directory. EVERY customer gets dealt with personally, all e-mail queries are handled in a maximum of 24 hours (more usually 1 hour) and every update made to adverts is hand checked.

It's common for new advertisers to make mistakes or even attempt to abuse the editorial rules. This is soon resolved in the first round of contact and we have very few problems afterward. In reality, editorial work and client contact takes up hours per week - not days.

3) The business is technology-led. Period.
For all the reasons above, and the fact that all our services are predominantly online, services MUST rely on decent control systems via technology. It still amazes me the number of services that are so far behind - almost arrogant - on this issue. You should DEMAND good administration and solid websites. The revenues most services generate is ample for ongoing re-investment.


The "they get me enquiries" argument isn't an excuse for rubbish. Failings in other areas are normally an indication of bigger problems behind the scenes. Look elsewhere now before a future failure hurts you in lost bookings.

Bottom line: there's accepted standards to meet and you, as advertisers, should be demanding more.

[Alan Knighting]

Richard,

I wear two hats in this debate.

In the past I was a lawyer but I was also an IT manager, a systems analyst and a programmer and, as such, I appreciate and agree with what is being said about technology. The other side of the coin is that I am a property owner trying to generate enquiries and bookings. Guess what my priority is.

The "they get me enquiries" argument isn't an excuse for rubbish. Failings in other areas are normally an indication of bigger problems behind the scenes. Look elsewhere now before a future failure hurts you in lost bookings.

I suspect this is probably directed at French Connections because they seem to be attracting this sort of criticism. I don’t regard FC as “rubbish� but they are certainly failing in some technological respects.

The "they get me enquiries" argument is a very strong one. The most technologically gifted Website in the world that produces no enquiries and no bookings is of no interest to me whatever. I want enquirers to find me and I want a good flow of bookings. FC gives me both - for now.

As an owner I would like to be able to amend my entry, personally and on-line. But, do enquirers care whether or not I can do that? I suspect not.

I constantly keep my properties up-to-date and Website proprietors should do the same with their offerings. I might go elsewhere but will the enquirers do the same?

Alan

[paolo]

Richard I agree with all your points, as an advertiser that's how I feel about advertising sites.

However, I also agree with you Alan, the number of enquiries is the bottom line. It doesn't matter how hi-tech and shiny a site is, if they don't deliver the goods they are no good to you.

[Darren]

Sorry Richard, but I disagree.

You cannot judge a website based on the technologies that it uses. The primary aim for any holiday rental company is to provide owners with enquiries, which hopefully lead to bookings.

I talking from someone who is marketing a holiday home rather than a holiday rental company - If I advertised on 2 websites, one state of the art with regard to technology, but it generated a few enquiries a month, or a website which was basic, but it generated a few enquiries a week, I know which I would prefer to continue my business with.

Yes, it is a 'nice to have' the option of editing your advertisement, but is it really that feature that would make an owner decide which website to promote their property on.

Darren

[BungleBob]

Guys,

You are misconstruing the technology point: it ISN'T a question of shiny, it's a question of management.

My points aren't made directly against FC (I know nothing about them) but follow the wider comments in this forum and elsewhere on poor service from various advertising sites.

My point to you, as advertisers, is that if you are suffering problems of poor service, beware of more problems behind the scenes. A lack of 24/7 updates and poor service levels imply poor management - which in this business is most likely down to poor technology.

If the technology is poor, the business is likely to be unstable (in an online market). Thus if it fails, it takes your advertising fee AND potential bookings with it - a substantial loss to you.

In other words, don't put all your eggs in one basket and never seek to justify failures. This should be about raising the bar, not excusing it.

[Darren]

If the technology is poor, the business is likely to be unstable (in an online market). Thus if it fails, it takes your advertising fee AND potential bookings with it - a substantial loss to you.

I can't help but disagree with you

In the last three years I've seen holiday rental companies come and go, these sites have ranged from very basic, static HTML sites to PHP and ASP websites.

Yes, you have to be well organised and manage your company effectively, that goes without saying, but just because you don't have the technology it doesn't mean that the company is less likely to fail than someone with a all singing all dancing website.

It's down to the individual(s) who run the company to make it a well managed company.

Darren

[paolo]

If a site did go under and my ad was no longer on the internet (not necessarily the case I would think), the loss to me wouldn't be substantial, just the remainder of the annual fee. I am paying between £80 and £160 for my ads, so the loss would be a tiny fraction of turnover. I'm not going to lose sleep over this!