I have been following this thread with interest, though I have to disagree with the the logic of reasoning that nothing comes for free. Let me give an example, using holiday-rentals and vacationvillas as my "prefered site examples".
If they were to charge for every change or additional data input, what would be the use of having interactive tools such as availability calanders, guests' testimonials, price/seanon tables etc? It would be counter productive to charge a fee to enable to keep their advert up to date, thus ensuring that prospective clients are not making enquieries for dates that are sold and asking for quotes etc. This saves time and effort for both sides.
What about if I have recently added to the comforts of home by buying a new dvd, stereo, even a pool maybe - why wait till renewal to "update" the data? On the other hand, why pay to do so?
It is, afterall me and you who decide where and at what expense we spend our advertising budget.
I believe that technology plays a big role in a site's success, but it's results that brings in the business!
The comment regarding incorrect grammar, spelling mistakes etc, which have to be corrected is also debatable. So what if there are a few spelling mistakes, or some grammatical mistakes? This posting is probably littered with mistakes, but I'm sure everyone has understood. It's the same with the adverts: prospective clients are not proofreaders, judging the properties by the grammatical abilities of their owners. Even if they were, I would rather not have to deal with someone who looks at life through a fine toothcomb.
Finally, you can have a site boasting all of the latest PHP's, ASP's and whatever other fancy technical stuff that may exist - your site will always depend on the one thing that counts - results. Remember one thing though - we don't all understand the technical side of IT technology, thus we may not appreciate the effort and value of your work, therefore it is imperitive that your site comes accross to us as "a site that cares for it's customers" and not just something inside the massive world of cyberspace that is after your money.
Charging for changes
John, you have 'hit the nail on the head!'... you can have a site boasting all of the latest PHP's, ASP's and whatever other fancy technical stuff that may exist - your site will always depend on the one thing that counts - results. Remember one thing though - we don't all understand the technical side of IT technology, thus we may not appreciate the effort and value of your work, therefore it is imperitive that your site comes accross to us as "a site that cares for it's customers" and not just something inside the massive world of cyberspace that is after your money.
Darren
[/quote]Darren, like I said, I don't understand most of the technical jargon, though it still interests me to know, but yes, I pay for a service and expect results.I have had a fantastic season this year (my first full year) and my choice of advertisers were not all sucessfull. Now after 18 months of trial and error I can choose to renew with the people who have given me value for money and yes, why not, good customer care. I will stay loyal to 2 good websites, though obviously I, and probably everyone else, are always on the lookout for new sites to consider when our present sites slack or fail to deliver.
This is the same with every type of business. You can never rest on your laurels - you must always find room for improvement and you must always believe that there is room for improvement. The day you believe that you cannot do better is the day you start the downhill side of the mountain.
This is the same with every type of business. You can never rest on your laurels - you must always find room for improvement and you must always believe that there is room for improvement. The day you believe that you cannot do better is the day you start the downhill side of the mountain.
Malta – always in the sunshine!
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livinginitaly
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- Location: Italy (at last!)
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I just can't resist adding to the 'to and fro' of this thread
My experience of Rental or Property sites is a recent thing brought on by us trying to sell our house in UK to enable a relocation to Italy.
Looking around at the estate agents websites, there really is an awful lot of rubbish out there ... being a web designer, i knew i could do better. However, being able to develop a visually appealing website, even one where the operation is very much 'hands off', doesn't mean it's going to perform any better.
Having looked around at holiday rental sites, again, in the main i'm really not impressed and surprised some of them 'work' at all. VRBO for example is (in my opinion) a hideous website, however, looking closer you can see why it works. It offers many search methods (clicking anything 'colourful' will generally lead you to your destination) and it follows the '3 click rule', that is, the user should be able to get to the required information in 3 mouse clicks.
As was mentioned earlier, you can build 'the' most visually attractive site, include the latest in operator friendly technologies but it will still be beaten 'hands down' by a 'crude but effective' website.
As a dedicated 'technology geek' it was a very, very sad day when i realised this
My experience of Rental or Property sites is a recent thing brought on by us trying to sell our house in UK to enable a relocation to Italy.
Looking around at the estate agents websites, there really is an awful lot of rubbish out there ... being a web designer, i knew i could do better. However, being able to develop a visually appealing website, even one where the operation is very much 'hands off', doesn't mean it's going to perform any better.
Having looked around at holiday rental sites, again, in the main i'm really not impressed and surprised some of them 'work' at all. VRBO for example is (in my opinion) a hideous website, however, looking closer you can see why it works. It offers many search methods (clicking anything 'colourful' will generally lead you to your destination) and it follows the '3 click rule', that is, the user should be able to get to the required information in 3 mouse clicks.
As was mentioned earlier, you can build 'the' most visually attractive site, include the latest in operator friendly technologies but it will still be beaten 'hands down' by a 'crude but effective' website.
As a dedicated 'technology geek' it was a very, very sad day when i realised this
Did I miss my post?
Hi all (big thread!)
We seem to have gone all techie/shiny again. Just to say this again, it ISN'T a question of shiny, it's a question of MANAGEMENT.
Few points to pick up:
As for shiny websites generally, the fact that results count is a no-brainer. Of course it's results that count and technology should have no part to play. But we're talking about websites - use of technology is inherent.
Don't these sites all rely heavily on SEO for their marketing? Technology.
How do villa websites achieve a low fee/high distribution model? Technology.
24/7 updates? Technology.
5 years ago, online advertising was new and exciting for the rentals market - led by technology. Firms like holiday-rentals.com forged the way and owners loved the new way of working. ALL BUILT ON TECHNOLOGY.
The fact that yesterday's "new" is today's "accepted practice" shouldn't mean it stops here. The web is moving on, websites need to move on. The great sadness to me is that this market (which is enormous) hasn't thrown up an Amazon, Expedia, Google, Blogger, eBay or any other superb site the world talks about.
Instead we're debating the need (or not) for online updates. Aren't we still debating whether a car should have round wheels? Sod the wheels, what's under the hood... (apparently not much if the complaints on service are anything to go by...
)
We seem to have gone all techie/shiny again. Just to say this again, it ISN'T a question of shiny, it's a question of MANAGEMENT.
Few points to pick up:
Darren - the originial premise was poor customer service. In an online business (read that again - ONLINE), how any company can sustain quality levels of service across the board without decent backoffice systems is a mystery to us, and we do the job everyday. That company would either have hopelessly overworked staff or failing service levels - or eventually both.just because you don't have the technology it doesn't mean that the company is less likely to fail than someone with a all singing all dancing website.
Paolo - we saw this happen at first hand with one of the areas we specialise in. The actual effect was horrific because many advertisers weren't able to adjust their marketing fast enough when one firm failed. They didn't just lose their fee, they lost the bookings they SHOULD have had for the season. That ran into thousands.(if a service fails...) I am paying between £80 and £160 for my ads, so the loss would be a tiny fraction of turnover. I'm not going to lose sleep over this!
As for shiny websites generally, the fact that results count is a no-brainer. Of course it's results that count and technology should have no part to play. But we're talking about websites - use of technology is inherent.
Don't these sites all rely heavily on SEO for their marketing? Technology.
How do villa websites achieve a low fee/high distribution model? Technology.
24/7 updates? Technology.
5 years ago, online advertising was new and exciting for the rentals market - led by technology. Firms like holiday-rentals.com forged the way and owners loved the new way of working. ALL BUILT ON TECHNOLOGY.
The fact that yesterday's "new" is today's "accepted practice" shouldn't mean it stops here. The web is moving on, websites need to move on. The great sadness to me is that this market (which is enormous) hasn't thrown up an Amazon, Expedia, Google, Blogger, eBay or any other superb site the world talks about.
Instead we're debating the need (or not) for online updates. Aren't we still debating whether a car should have round wheels? Sod the wheels, what's under the hood... (apparently not much if the complaints on service are anything to go by...
)Richard Speigal, Editor, España Breaks
.. but Richard, if a company is running a static HTML website, updating ad's within a few hours of them being submitted, getting owners enquiries..which in turn is providing excellent customer service .. what is the problem with that?
Why do we have to have expedia like companies within the industry?
The majority of holiday rental companies, and I'd say probably 90% do not have the profit margin to become one of these companies, and from my own personal experience with Expedia, why the hell would you want to.
Yes, technology is a nice thing to have but I don't think it is required for a company to manage themselves effectively.. I don't think we are going to agree on this one Rich
Darren
Why do we have to have expedia like companies within the industry?
The majority of holiday rental companies, and I'd say probably 90% do not have the profit margin to become one of these companies, and from my own personal experience with Expedia, why the hell would you want to.
Yes, technology is a nice thing to have but I don't think it is required for a company to manage themselves effectively.. I don't think we are going to agree on this one Rich
Darren
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Alan Knighting
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Dear All,
I expect to be shot down for this but here we go anyway.
This thread is getting a lot of comment, perhaps more than it deserves. The interests of three groups of people should be represented here. The Internet Holiday Companies, the Property Owners and the Holidaymakers. But only the first two are!
1. Internet Holiday Companies. In their own interests and for their own reasons they should have the best possible internal management. When trying to compete amongst themselves and sell their products to Property Owners they need to incorporate all the best and most modern tools and facilities. This includes availability calendars and the ability for Property Owners to make instant on-line editorial changes.
2. Property Owners. It is in their interests to obtain the highest possible level of enquiries that they can convert into bookings. Availability calendars and the ability to make instant on-line editorial changes are nice things to have but they are really the battleground of the Internet Holiday Companies. Naturally, the real test of an Internet Holiday Company is the results.
3. Holidaymakers. Their interests are in finding the right holiday, easily and quickly. For them, an availability calendar is a very useful feature. Whether or not the Internet Holiday Company offers, and the Property Owner has, the ability to make instant on-line editorial changes is almost completely irrelevant. Obviously, Holidaymakers do not want to arrive at a property that bears no relation to what was advertised but lets get real. The changes the Property Owner wants to make are usually additions to, not subtractions from, the facilities of the property on offer.
Let’s get a balance into this thread. The Internet Holiday Company wants to sell its product, the Property Owners wants to sell his/her product and the Holidaymaker wants to buy. Combine all three and you have a perfect situation where everyone has achieved their goal. Is it likely to happen? I don’t think so.
I am very involved in IT but my motivation, as a Property Owner, is to run my holiday business successfully. For the moment, I am achieving that using an Internet Holiday Company that is perhaps technologically deprived but is producing the results.
Why buy a Ferrari when a Skoda does a better job? At the end of the day it is the results that count no matter how “trendy� the alternatives might appear to be.
Alan
I expect to be shot down for this but here we go anyway.
This thread is getting a lot of comment, perhaps more than it deserves. The interests of three groups of people should be represented here. The Internet Holiday Companies, the Property Owners and the Holidaymakers. But only the first two are!
1. Internet Holiday Companies. In their own interests and for their own reasons they should have the best possible internal management. When trying to compete amongst themselves and sell their products to Property Owners they need to incorporate all the best and most modern tools and facilities. This includes availability calendars and the ability for Property Owners to make instant on-line editorial changes.
2. Property Owners. It is in their interests to obtain the highest possible level of enquiries that they can convert into bookings. Availability calendars and the ability to make instant on-line editorial changes are nice things to have but they are really the battleground of the Internet Holiday Companies. Naturally, the real test of an Internet Holiday Company is the results.
3. Holidaymakers. Their interests are in finding the right holiday, easily and quickly. For them, an availability calendar is a very useful feature. Whether or not the Internet Holiday Company offers, and the Property Owner has, the ability to make instant on-line editorial changes is almost completely irrelevant. Obviously, Holidaymakers do not want to arrive at a property that bears no relation to what was advertised but lets get real. The changes the Property Owner wants to make are usually additions to, not subtractions from, the facilities of the property on offer.
Let’s get a balance into this thread. The Internet Holiday Company wants to sell its product, the Property Owners wants to sell his/her product and the Holidaymaker wants to buy. Combine all three and you have a perfect situation where everyone has achieved their goal. Is it likely to happen? I don’t think so.
I am very involved in IT but my motivation, as a Property Owner, is to run my holiday business successfully. For the moment, I am achieving that using an Internet Holiday Company that is perhaps technologically deprived but is producing the results.
Why buy a Ferrari when a Skoda does a better job? At the end of the day it is the results that count no matter how “trendy� the alternatives might appear to be.
Alan
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livinginitaly
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Bunglebob
If you have a popular site, with good content and good linking structure, you don't need SEO ...... because, by definition you already have what the Search Engines are looking for.
SEO has grown (and is importmant) for sites that generally lack the content of the bigger sites. I really doubt whether the owners of VRBO examine every page of the their site each month to check for 'keyword frequency' and '<h3> positioning'.
Yes over time, the newer faster leaner (technology) sites will come into their own, but that will only happen when times and tastes change. Sites like VRBO and FC already look very dated but people are still happy to use them.
As for customer service, I can go into PC world and buy what i need from there 'high profile', 'well marketed', 'EPoS controlled' stores or i can buy what i need from 'Joes PCs' on the street corner where the guy actually knows what i'm talking about .... it's 'People' that make or break companies online or otherwise.
SEO is a relatively new idea, spawned either to give an extra sales opportunity to webdesigners or the chance for the more 'techy' web developers to 'diversify'. There was no such thing as SEO when many of the 'BIG' travel sites were started 1995/7.Don't these sites all rely heavily on SEO for their marketing? Technology.
If you have a popular site, with good content and good linking structure, you don't need SEO ...... because, by definition you already have what the Search Engines are looking for.
SEO has grown (and is importmant) for sites that generally lack the content of the bigger sites. I really doubt whether the owners of VRBO examine every page of the their site each month to check for 'keyword frequency' and '<h3> positioning'.
Yes over time, the newer faster leaner (technology) sites will come into their own, but that will only happen when times and tastes change. Sites like VRBO and FC already look very dated but people are still happy to use them.
As for customer service, I can go into PC world and buy what i need from there 'high profile', 'well marketed', 'EPoS controlled' stores or i can buy what i need from 'Joes PCs' on the street corner where the guy actually knows what i'm talking about .... it's 'People' that make or break companies online or otherwise.
What a medusa of a thread!
It's interesting because we have rental site owners, rental site advertisers and rental site users (which is what we all are presumably).
There are a couple of points amid many I want to say something about:
The point about vrbo's design interests me. Nobody is a greater admirer of the amount of food on my table, or the clothes on my children's backs, that vrbo has been responsible for. But that design...?
I don't think anyone could say that vrbo's visual appeal is why people flock to it. But this site is a monster. In the last year, by my reckoning it has doubled in size from 15,000 advertisers to 30,000.
When I am looking for a rental property to book the first place I go is holiday-rentals.com. I think the user interface is second-to-none, and the design is also great. So why isn't it growing at the rate of vrbo? Dare I say it comes down to the results for the advertisers. (And OK vrbo is US and has a bigger pool of properties to feed on).
It's interesting because we have rental site owners, rental site advertisers and rental site users (which is what we all are presumably).
There are a couple of points amid many I want to say something about:
I find that surprising. If one of my online ads disappeared it would take a couple of hours to identify another good site and get an ad up and running (as long as it's not FC!) There's no reason why I should lose potential bookings.The actual effect was horrific because many advertisers weren't able to adjust their marketing fast enough when one firm failed. They didn't just lose their fee, they lost the bookings they SHOULD have had for the season. That ran into thousands.
The point about vrbo's design interests me. Nobody is a greater admirer of the amount of food on my table, or the clothes on my children's backs, that vrbo has been responsible for. But that design...?
I don't think anyone could say that vrbo's visual appeal is why people flock to it. But this site is a monster. In the last year, by my reckoning it has doubled in size from 15,000 advertisers to 30,000.
When I am looking for a rental property to book the first place I go is holiday-rentals.com. I think the user interface is second-to-none, and the design is also great. So why isn't it growing at the rate of vrbo? Dare I say it comes down to the results for the advertisers. (And OK vrbo is US and has a bigger pool of properties to feed on).
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
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Alan Knighting
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- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
vbro has been mentioned in this topic.
I donned my Holidaymaker’s hat and did an IE search for vbro. The site came up right away at the top of the list - very encouraging.
I clicked into it and picked an area of France. I was absolutely horrified at what I was confronted with. A plain and awfully boring list of properties available within two hundred miles or more of where I might want to be.
I will admit I spent no more time on the Site but if that is the result of current technology you can stick it where it hurts. They may have lots of advertisers, they may get good ratings, they may get lots of “hits� but do they ever get any enquiries or bookings?
There is a special disclaimer page but there appears to be no search facility. One can differentiate between Matabeleland and Mozambique (actually you can’t) but not between Marseille and Montpellier. What use is that when you want to take the family to Marseillan?
I still maintain that it is results which count.
Alan
I donned my Holidaymaker’s hat and did an IE search for vbro. The site came up right away at the top of the list - very encouraging.
I clicked into it and picked an area of France. I was absolutely horrified at what I was confronted with. A plain and awfully boring list of properties available within two hundred miles or more of where I might want to be.
I will admit I spent no more time on the Site but if that is the result of current technology you can stick it where it hurts. They may have lots of advertisers, they may get good ratings, they may get lots of “hits� but do they ever get any enquiries or bookings?
There is a special disclaimer page but there appears to be no search facility. One can differentiate between Matabeleland and Mozambique (actually you can’t) but not between Marseille and Montpellier. What use is that when you want to take the family to Marseillan?
I still maintain that it is results which count.
Alan
I think we have all strayed a little from the subject of this thread, but it's great to hear everyone's comments and thoughts.
Regarding VRBO, forget the design, they have a reputation of getting good results for owners - yes, the interface could be improved but you can find results quickly and they have a superb selection of properties available for rental.
Not one UK / European rental company will be a competitor for VRBO unless they venture into the US vacation rental market, and that is not an easy task to undertake.
Regarding VRBO, forget the design, they have a reputation of getting good results for owners - yes, the interface could be improved but you can find results quickly and they have a superb selection of properties available for rental.
Not one UK / European rental company will be a competitor for VRBO unless they venture into the US vacation rental market, and that is not an easy task to undertake.
Alan,
I think vrbo accounts for half of my bookings, and since I use 6 listing sites, two personal websites and two pay-per-click programmes, that is fantastic.
I agree, it is not a pretty thing to look at, and it is not as user-friendly as other sites, but as you say, it's all about results.
About the non-specific list of properties, with no thumbnails - that's not great, but as an advertiser I like it, because if you write a decent descriptive line, it's quite easy to stick out from the competition and get clicked on.
And bear in mind that most people who happen across your ad will come to it through a search on a search engine, like 'vacation rentals in xyz'. Your ad rather than the vrbo homepage will come up near the top of the results. vrbo and the other big US sites have got these search phrases sewn up.
It may be that one of the reasons vrbo has grown so big is down to their bare-bones design. It's all juicy content and keywords which the search engines love (that's a non-technical explanation). But that's a different discussion altogether...
I think vrbo accounts for half of my bookings, and since I use 6 listing sites, two personal websites and two pay-per-click programmes, that is fantastic.
I agree, it is not a pretty thing to look at, and it is not as user-friendly as other sites, but as you say, it's all about results.
About the non-specific list of properties, with no thumbnails - that's not great, but as an advertiser I like it, because if you write a decent descriptive line, it's quite easy to stick out from the competition and get clicked on.
And bear in mind that most people who happen across your ad will come to it through a search on a search engine, like 'vacation rentals in xyz'. Your ad rather than the vrbo homepage will come up near the top of the results. vrbo and the other big US sites have got these search phrases sewn up.
It may be that one of the reasons vrbo has grown so big is down to their bare-bones design. It's all juicy content and keywords which the search engines love (that's a non-technical explanation). But that's a different discussion altogether...
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
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Alan Knighting
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Paolo,
Holidaymaker’s hat on again.
I tried two searches in Google. “Vacation property in South West France� and Self catering property in Monflanquin�. In both instances two of my Holiday Rental Companies (French Connections and Areca) were on the first page and in some cases they were pointing direct to my property.
Applying the same searches using Dogpile, AltaVista, Lycos, Ask Jeeves, and Yahoo! I got almost identical results.
I did not go further than the first three pages on any of the results but found no vrbo entries. It may be down to my search criteria, it may be an absence of local availability, it may be that the companies are working on ratings, I don’t know.
Maybe I should count myself as being very lucky but it can be no surprise that I am satisfied, for the moment. On another day the results might be quite different.
Alan
Holidaymaker’s hat on again.
I tried two searches in Google. “Vacation property in South West France� and Self catering property in Monflanquin�. In both instances two of my Holiday Rental Companies (French Connections and Areca) were on the first page and in some cases they were pointing direct to my property.
Applying the same searches using Dogpile, AltaVista, Lycos, Ask Jeeves, and Yahoo! I got almost identical results.
I did not go further than the first three pages on any of the results but found no vrbo entries. It may be down to my search criteria, it may be an absence of local availability, it may be that the companies are working on ratings, I don’t know.
Maybe I should count myself as being very lucky but it can be no surprise that I am satisfied, for the moment. On another day the results might be quite different.
Alan
I have just renewed my property with French Connections, plus sent them some changes for my entry. Like most people I find it frustrating not being able to make these changes myself, but I knew that before I placed my house with them. I received the following reply that seems to answer all the previous comments….. ( I think they have been following this thread…!!)
Thank you for your email requesting information or changes to your current advertisement.
French Connections is currently undergoing an expansive programme of development to enable us to include many new and useful features for both property owners like yourself and for holiday makers searching for properties.
Your enquiry comes to us at a time when we are currently transferring all our existing advertisements onto our new site due to launch in December. We chose to carry out this work during this late Autumn period as, historically for us, it has been a little quieter than at other times of the year. However, this year, we are experiencing an unprecedented demand for amendments to existing advertisement pages.
We therefore want to advise you that, due to the combination of the launch of the new site and the level of update requests being received, your amendments will not go online on the current site, but will be placed onto the new site to launch in December. If you are requesting price and/or contact detail amendments you will be advised when then have been processed, if you are requesting text or photograph amendments you will be contacted.
We do sincerely apologise for this as we know that this may be disappointing to you. We hope you will however be pleased to know that one of the new facilities we will be launching is the opportunity for you to control much of the page updating yourself! You will soon be receiving our newsletter advising you of the launch date and the new opportunities that will be available to you
Thank you for your email requesting information or changes to your current advertisement.
French Connections is currently undergoing an expansive programme of development to enable us to include many new and useful features for both property owners like yourself and for holiday makers searching for properties.
Your enquiry comes to us at a time when we are currently transferring all our existing advertisements onto our new site due to launch in December. We chose to carry out this work during this late Autumn period as, historically for us, it has been a little quieter than at other times of the year. However, this year, we are experiencing an unprecedented demand for amendments to existing advertisement pages.
We therefore want to advise you that, due to the combination of the launch of the new site and the level of update requests being received, your amendments will not go online on the current site, but will be placed onto the new site to launch in December. If you are requesting price and/or contact detail amendments you will be advised when then have been processed, if you are requesting text or photograph amendments you will be contacted.
We do sincerely apologise for this as we know that this may be disappointing to you. We hope you will however be pleased to know that one of the new facilities we will be launching is the opportunity for you to control much of the page updating yourself! You will soon be receiving our newsletter advising you of the launch date and the new opportunities that will be available to you