Our plumber (in Switzerland plumbers do roofs - something to do with early skills using copper and lead) casually mentioned we needed a new roof last week.
A crisp estimate arrived through the door today. I can't bring myself to look at the last page.
Has anyone got recent experience with high-altitude/low temp. roofing solutions? We had about 40cms of ice and snow on the roof throughout last winter with 3m icicles under the eaves.
Thanks.
Goat
This year's income down the drain (or rather up on the roof)
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Mountain Goat
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Don't know about high altitude, we're at sea level, but we do have extreme low and high temps and timberframe houses. Minus 10F to minus 15F through +100F to +110F would be the normal annual range.
Forget slate or any kind of tile, which cracks in those cold temps. Roofing material used here is rolls of asphalt shingle, which is cheap and quick to put down, therefore a new roof is not considered a major expense. We patch repair or add up to 3 complete layers before old layers have to be removed. A single layer can be guaranteed 10 to 40 years depending on quality. There's no copper involved so far as I know, but they do use lead for flashings.
This may be an arrogant thing to say, but every country has specialist roofers and I don't believe there is no such thing in Switzerland. Ask your plumber if he is insured for roofing, it's normally a separate class of insurance for falling off a roof. I would definitely ask for a second opinion from a proper roofer, but perhaps your plumber is willing to throw in the cost of unclogging the dishwasher filter from all that fruit washing while he's at it ....
I'm sure someone else can be more helpful.....
p.s. here's a whole bunch of swiss roofers that are into the solar energy thing.... http://energy.sourceguides.com/business ... olar.shtml
Forget slate or any kind of tile, which cracks in those cold temps. Roofing material used here is rolls of asphalt shingle, which is cheap and quick to put down, therefore a new roof is not considered a major expense. We patch repair or add up to 3 complete layers before old layers have to be removed. A single layer can be guaranteed 10 to 40 years depending on quality. There's no copper involved so far as I know, but they do use lead for flashings.
This may be an arrogant thing to say, but every country has specialist roofers and I don't believe there is no such thing in Switzerland. Ask your plumber if he is insured for roofing, it's normally a separate class of insurance for falling off a roof. I would definitely ask for a second opinion from a proper roofer, but perhaps your plumber is willing to throw in the cost of unclogging the dishwasher filter from all that fruit washing while he's at it ....
I'm sure someone else can be more helpful.....
p.s. here's a whole bunch of swiss roofers that are into the solar energy thing.... http://energy.sourceguides.com/business ... olar.shtml
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Alan Knighting
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Joanna,
I think your advice is spot on. The local specialist will know the practices and the suitable materials. Your imported cowboy wouldn’t have a clue, except when it comes to wanting your money of course.
The point about insurance is crucial. If you employ someone “on the black� he will not have insurance and if he falls off the roof the law will hold you responsible. If he becomes a quadriplegic it will cost you millions.
Alan
I think your advice is spot on. The local specialist will know the practices and the suitable materials. Your imported cowboy wouldn’t have a clue, except when it comes to wanting your money of course.
The point about insurance is crucial. If you employ someone “on the black� he will not have insurance and if he falls off the roof the law will hold you responsible. If he becomes a quadriplegic it will cost you millions.
Alan
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Hells Bells
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In france the plumbers do the sealing of the roof, which is done in zinc, and the builders do the roof. There is no point in arguing with the way things are done, they just are.
I'm not sure how it works in switzerland, but you need to talk to your local "marie" (town hall?) or planning office. Often the roofing materials and design are dictacted by the planning office. From what I remember of Switzerland (my brother lives there) the roofs are certainly not asphelt style, and I would doubt that they are cheap!
How old is the roof? Are you absolutely sure it needs re-doing? is it leaking anywhere? Obviously you don't want to wait until it colapses on you, but it would certainly be worth getting a second opinion.
We are in the same situation, the roof on one of the gites needs re-doing. We are in no doubt, it is over 50 years old, and has been patched several times in the last couple of years to stop leaks. We are hoping to do the roof over winter 2006/2007 finances permitting, but the builder says he can continue to patch for another couple of years if needs be.
Ju
I'm not sure how it works in switzerland, but you need to talk to your local "marie" (town hall?) or planning office. Often the roofing materials and design are dictacted by the planning office. From what I remember of Switzerland (my brother lives there) the roofs are certainly not asphelt style, and I would doubt that they are cheap!
How old is the roof? Are you absolutely sure it needs re-doing? is it leaking anywhere? Obviously you don't want to wait until it colapses on you, but it would certainly be worth getting a second opinion.
We are in the same situation, the roof on one of the gites needs re-doing. We are in no doubt, it is over 50 years old, and has been patched several times in the last couple of years to stop leaks. We are hoping to do the roof over winter 2006/2007 finances permitting, but the builder says he can continue to patch for another couple of years if needs be.
Ju
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Mountain Goat
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Joanna et al, many thanks for the response.
My fault for not explaining in a bit more detail.
In our (French) part of Switzerland it is very common for plumbers to do roofs,and they do some really excellent work. Many local structures (private homes, barns, commercial premises) have had copper roofs, and the workmanship (looked at by visiting professional Brits, both builders and architects) is judged to be superb. It's a practical material, but expensive, and it lasts.
Traditionally (and in our village there are many chalets over 400 yrs old) clay tiles have been used. Ours have lasted 40 yrs, and replacements are various, including tiles made of some material used on a Japanese spacecraft (?), and flogged en suisse as Eternit.
Clay, is not ideal, and unlikely these days.
What has happened to us, and many others, is the punishing winter cycle of:
1) Heavy snow falls on roof
2) Hot sunshine during the day (good skiing) or heat escaping from the interior of the building through inferior insulation, causes snow to melt, partially.
3) At night temps. drop well below freezing, and any loose water freezes.
4) Ice takes up more vol. than water (badly put).
5) Any water which trickled into gaps, cracks or other apertures and turned to ice then expands.
6) Tiles crack, lift and generally are unhappy.
7) In freezing conditions the occupants are unsuspecting, but then the thaw comes (maybe only for an afternoon), and water seeps through further cracks, freezes, icicles form etc. and the whole thing repeats on a daily or weekly cycle.
Ice dams form, and giant icicles hang from weak spots (they are killers, literally).
In North America there are many good websites discussing the problem and solution. Good Google keywords are 'ice dam roof' for instance:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... K1068.html
Additional probs. are snow-stops; one variety are metal bars which stretch horizontally across the roof to stop snow sliding off, and how these are attached into or through tiles as this is a good entry point for water.
There are several solutions, and my problem is finding the best, taking into account differing climatic conditions (not just temp, but precipitation, humidity, atmos. pressure etc.), getting expertise on site, getting materials to Switzerland (if necessary), and making sure (as Alan points out) about insurance, safety etc.
Going back to plumbers, there are plumbers who are primarily plumbers and roofers second, and vice-versa. However, these guys are not cowboys, and know their stuff, and samples of their work are all around us.
Additional probs. are finding asbestos on the original roof structure, any rotting wood on the roof structure which needs replacing, finding best time of year to do it (good weather is fine for roof replacement, but punters not keen on place being dismantled, so lack of income) and little 'extras' like having the materials delivered by helicopter (charged by the minute and highly efficient - our neighbour had all their topsoil delivered by air).
The majority of work on the place (3yrs conversion) has been done by Brits, and some French guys, but as Alan has pointed out, insurance is a serious issue, and another is getting a guarantee which means something. Looks like one of our Swiss plumbers is going to be the best bet, after we have researched all the available materials.
But anyone who has already done it would be great.....
Ju - just seen your post, and will reply properly.
Goat
My fault for not explaining in a bit more detail.
In our (French) part of Switzerland it is very common for plumbers to do roofs,and they do some really excellent work. Many local structures (private homes, barns, commercial premises) have had copper roofs, and the workmanship (looked at by visiting professional Brits, both builders and architects) is judged to be superb. It's a practical material, but expensive, and it lasts.
Traditionally (and in our village there are many chalets over 400 yrs old) clay tiles have been used. Ours have lasted 40 yrs, and replacements are various, including tiles made of some material used on a Japanese spacecraft (?), and flogged en suisse as Eternit.
Clay, is not ideal, and unlikely these days.
What has happened to us, and many others, is the punishing winter cycle of:
1) Heavy snow falls on roof
2) Hot sunshine during the day (good skiing) or heat escaping from the interior of the building through inferior insulation, causes snow to melt, partially.
3) At night temps. drop well below freezing, and any loose water freezes.
4) Ice takes up more vol. than water (badly put).
5) Any water which trickled into gaps, cracks or other apertures and turned to ice then expands.
6) Tiles crack, lift and generally are unhappy.
7) In freezing conditions the occupants are unsuspecting, but then the thaw comes (maybe only for an afternoon), and water seeps through further cracks, freezes, icicles form etc. and the whole thing repeats on a daily or weekly cycle.
Ice dams form, and giant icicles hang from weak spots (they are killers, literally).In North America there are many good websites discussing the problem and solution. Good Google keywords are 'ice dam roof' for instance:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... K1068.html
Additional probs. are snow-stops; one variety are metal bars which stretch horizontally across the roof to stop snow sliding off, and how these are attached into or through tiles as this is a good entry point for water.
There are several solutions, and my problem is finding the best, taking into account differing climatic conditions (not just temp, but precipitation, humidity, atmos. pressure etc.), getting expertise on site, getting materials to Switzerland (if necessary), and making sure (as Alan points out) about insurance, safety etc.
Going back to plumbers, there are plumbers who are primarily plumbers and roofers second, and vice-versa. However, these guys are not cowboys, and know their stuff, and samples of their work are all around us.
Additional probs. are finding asbestos on the original roof structure, any rotting wood on the roof structure which needs replacing, finding best time of year to do it (good weather is fine for roof replacement, but punters not keen on place being dismantled, so lack of income) and little 'extras' like having the materials delivered by helicopter (charged by the minute and highly efficient - our neighbour had all their topsoil delivered by air).
The majority of work on the place (3yrs conversion) has been done by Brits, and some French guys, but as Alan has pointed out, insurance is a serious issue, and another is getting a guarantee which means something. Looks like one of our Swiss plumbers is going to be the best bet, after we have researched all the available materials.
But anyone who has already done it would be great.....
Ju - just seen your post, and will reply properly.
Goat
Last edited by Mountain Goat on Mon May 01, 2006 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mountain Goat
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Ju, thanks for this.Ju wrote:In france the plumbers do the sealing of the roof, which is done in zinc, and the builders do the roof.
Ju
I really can't talk for the whole of Switzerland, but that's we way it is with us. It seems more sensible in France, though our guy will be calling in carpenter(s) and other skills.
Talking to our marie/commune, they're not so worried about materials as the final colour (not with copper, as it weathers so quickly), and that is strictly controlled.
The whole place is 40yrs old, so quite modern, and until now we thought it was in good repair. (I suppose surveys would be the subject of another thread - the seller 4 yrs ago appeared mortified when we suggested a survey - I can see why, and like idiots we didn't have a formal one).
Yes, it does leak, three points into the interior and several under the eaves.
If a leak appears in the winter, there's not much which can be done until the ice/snow melts - I spent days in February with a fan heater trying to expose and cover the flashing around a Velux, which was leaking. And ski punters wouldn't be over thrilled about having a bucket in the corner of their luxury bedroom, as we found out.
Do you have snow/ice in the winter?
Goat
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Hells Bells
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Mountain Goat
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HelenB, yes, I've heard France is almost the same, but there are quite a lot of Brit surveyors based in France, no? The ones we talked to muttered about not working outside the EEC, so that didn't help us, and our UK one came up with some amazing figure to come out.
Surveyors of domestic property don't seem to exist in Switzerland, except for one or two seriously posh outfits in Geneva, mainly dealing in commercial property. Seller, notaire, our (Swiss) architect, all were aghast at the idea of a survey. It was almost like we were accusing them of lying when they said it was in good nick. In fact it was. Almost.
We eventually used Swiss carpenter, Swiss builder, Swiss electrician and Swiss plumber to give us a couple of hours of their time to look over the property and advise us of any potential problems. They all turned up together on the dot of 0800 one morning and got stuck in, with the seller wringing his hands in frustration at this weird Brit insistence. It was well worth it, and they gave us honest reports, but the roof is a sore point (almost 4 years on of course).
2 charged us, 2 didn't, and we used them all anyway at various stages of the conversion.
However, and adjusting my bore-of-the-year hat, the most vital piece of advice we would give to anyone, whichever country, is to get hold of a surveyor you trust, give him/her a long weekend in your dream destination, and let them loose. Absolutely vital. Don't be talked out of it, as we 1/2 were. Whatever they come up with is a bargaining point with the seller.
Even new property. A couple recently bought this magnificent chalet which was floating in a bog which they hadn't quite realised. Subsidence happens frequently up mountains, as another purchaser found out.
Goat
Surveyors of domestic property don't seem to exist in Switzerland, except for one or two seriously posh outfits in Geneva, mainly dealing in commercial property. Seller, notaire, our (Swiss) architect, all were aghast at the idea of a survey. It was almost like we were accusing them of lying when they said it was in good nick. In fact it was. Almost.
We eventually used Swiss carpenter, Swiss builder, Swiss electrician and Swiss plumber to give us a couple of hours of their time to look over the property and advise us of any potential problems. They all turned up together on the dot of 0800 one morning and got stuck in, with the seller wringing his hands in frustration at this weird Brit insistence. It was well worth it, and they gave us honest reports, but the roof is a sore point (almost 4 years on of course).
2 charged us, 2 didn't, and we used them all anyway at various stages of the conversion.
However, and adjusting my bore-of-the-year hat, the most vital piece of advice we would give to anyone, whichever country, is to get hold of a surveyor you trust, give him/her a long weekend in your dream destination, and let them loose. Absolutely vital. Don't be talked out of it, as we 1/2 were. Whatever they come up with is a bargaining point with the seller.
Even new property. A couple recently bought this magnificent chalet which was floating in a bog which they hadn't quite realised. Subsidence happens frequently up mountains, as another purchaser found out.
Goat
Last edited by Mountain Goat on Mon May 01, 2006 4:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Mountain goat, no we don't get snow. Our main problem is the wind. The tiles used here are traditional clay ones, which are not really fastened on as such, but layed on top of one another. This is fine when the roof is new, but in the older roofs the wooden supports tend to sag, so the overlapping portion of the tile is not quite sufficient. It then only takes one strong wind, which we get alot of, to blow the tiles out of place.
I know what you mean about punters and buckets, the last repair was done three days before the guests arrived, so up until then there had been several buckets around the place.
It sounds to me like you don't have much choice but to re-do the roof. Maybe you could get it organised for Autumn, so you don't miss too many bookings.
Ju
I know what you mean about punters and buckets, the last repair was done three days before the guests arrived, so up until then there had been several buckets around the place.
It sounds to me like you don't have much choice but to re-do the roof. Maybe you could get it organised for Autumn, so you don't miss too many bookings.
Ju