At risk of accusations of apostasy I sometimes feel that I have wandered in to the wrong forum. Do (should) owners really use their own web-sites as a primary advertising medium? The internet was once though of as providing cheap advertising but now one can see that maintaining visibility is an expensive and time consuming exercise. The big sites have big budgets. I haven’t and so make no pretence of competing.
I do have a web-site and it does attract the odd enquiry directly. However it only comes to the top of the list when enquirers are pretty specific about where they want to holiday or pick a lucky (for me) combination of search criteria. I often see my houses referred to in searches but they come up on the big sites. That is good enough for me (even if sometimes I’ve never heard of the site on which my houses are listed).
My web-site is a second line marketing aid. It gives answers to questions enquirers may have and gives them an idea of what the houses offer. Our web-site sets out to differentiate our product from the others on the market. It also offers downloadable leaflets and booking forms. Some customers like the internet approach others still like me to send paper leaflets and details. They make the choice and I provide.
I don’t have time to be a web-site developer, salesman, marketing manager, gîte manager, administration manager and all the other roles required. I have built a web-site. I care that it shows what my customers want to see not what search engines and directories want to see. I pay others to do that for me just as I pay a cleaner who is better at cleaning than I am.
Discussions of SEO, TLD, TLA and so forth make me think ‘cobblers’ – as in ‘cobblers should stick to their lasts’ before this gets edited out for offensiveness. For those not familiar with the old joke TLA is Three Letter Acronym.
Are our own websites a primary advertising medium?
Sleekitbeastie,
I know what you mean, there is a lot of posting here about the more technical, webby, SEO aspect of being a rental owner. That's because the sort of people who are interested in this are the sort who are happy to use a forum. The great majority of rental owners will never make it onto a forum like this because it's technologically too daunting. So there is a slight imbalance in what we talk about here.
However...it's mostly consigned to the 'Personal websites' section, so there are all the other sections to make use of.
And...
You don't have to, but I think it's a good option. You can't compete with listing sites head-on, but you can work around the edges. It was not that long ago that I got round to making a website for my two houses. I was very happy with results from listing sites and didn't think there was any point in having my own site too.
But as you say a website is a great tool to refer people to for more information and pictures than they will see on a listing site ad.
Also, as the preponderance of listing sites dilutes the effectiveness of your advertising, your own website is the place to send a very focused clientele using pay-per-click advertising like Google's AdWords.
And whilst you can't compete on search engines for a search phrase like 'xyz holiday rentals', you can stuff your site with good content about your location, and get picked up that way. For example, I made a page on my sites about the village my houses are in. It's nothing fancy, a few paragraphs describing what's there and some pictures. It's quite a well-known village, but if you type its name (Menerbes) into Google I am at 4,5 ,6 and 7. Type 'menerbes rentals' into Google and I disappear, because the listing sites have words like 'rentals' wrapped up.
Not everyone typing your village's name into Google is looking for accommodation, but that doesn't matter, even if only one in a hundred is interested in your site it's worth doing.
Adding good content to your site is something you can do as and when, if you have half an hour to spare here and there. Similarly, working on getting some inbound links to your site, which will boost your search engine rankings, can be done in spurts. It's a bit like gardening, you do a little when you can fit it in.
To answer this point:
I know what you mean, there is a lot of posting here about the more technical, webby, SEO aspect of being a rental owner. That's because the sort of people who are interested in this are the sort who are happy to use a forum. The great majority of rental owners will never make it onto a forum like this because it's technologically too daunting. So there is a slight imbalance in what we talk about here.
However...it's mostly consigned to the 'Personal websites' section, so there are all the other sections to make use of.
And...
Do (should) owners really use their own web-sites as a primary advertising medium?
You don't have to, but I think it's a good option. You can't compete with listing sites head-on, but you can work around the edges. It was not that long ago that I got round to making a website for my two houses. I was very happy with results from listing sites and didn't think there was any point in having my own site too.
But as you say a website is a great tool to refer people to for more information and pictures than they will see on a listing site ad.
Also, as the preponderance of listing sites dilutes the effectiveness of your advertising, your own website is the place to send a very focused clientele using pay-per-click advertising like Google's AdWords.
And whilst you can't compete on search engines for a search phrase like 'xyz holiday rentals', you can stuff your site with good content about your location, and get picked up that way. For example, I made a page on my sites about the village my houses are in. It's nothing fancy, a few paragraphs describing what's there and some pictures. It's quite a well-known village, but if you type its name (Menerbes) into Google I am at 4,5 ,6 and 7. Type 'menerbes rentals' into Google and I disappear, because the listing sites have words like 'rentals' wrapped up.
Not everyone typing your village's name into Google is looking for accommodation, but that doesn't matter, even if only one in a hundred is interested in your site it's worth doing.
Adding good content to your site is something you can do as and when, if you have half an hour to spare here and there. Similarly, working on getting some inbound links to your site, which will boost your search engine rankings, can be done in spurts. It's a bit like gardening, you do a little when you can fit it in.
To answer this point:
Ultimately, people and search engines want the same thing - good, relevant content.I have built a web-site. I care that it shows what my customers want to see not what search engines and directories want to see.
Paolo
Lay My Hat
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
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- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
sleekitbeastie,
In a way my feelings are the same. Not about the Forum, I am delighted I found it! “Apostasy� - I haven’t abandoned my principles by being a member and I hope you haven’t either.
Despite the fact that I am considering creating, publishing and maintaining a personal website I do have my doubts about the value of personal websites and about the time and effort involved. Also, I feel that there is perhaps too much time being devoted to the subject on the Forum.
I use both brochure advertising and property listing sites and together they produce a good level of business. I have my reservations about whether or not a personal website would improve the situation at all. In addition, I have the feeling that a professionally produced website would be much better than anything I could produce and should/would include Search Engine optimisation. On that last point, I don’t see how it is possible to maintain a presence on the first two or three pages of any search results. Failing that, what visibility would a personal website give me?
The vast majority of my guests, first timers or returnees, coming through brochures or the Internet, make contact through the telephone or e-mail. When they want brochures, further details, route plans or booking forms they want them either e-mailed or posted, they never ask to be directed to yet another website; “been there, done that, got the t-shirt�. Using Adobe Acrobat documents I am totally geared up for both methods of communication.
I hasten to add; not in any way is this meant as a criticism of the Forum. It is a personal observation on the thinking behind one of its many threads. Nevertheless, it is an interesting thread.
Alan
In a way my feelings are the same. Not about the Forum, I am delighted I found it! “Apostasy� - I haven’t abandoned my principles by being a member and I hope you haven’t either.
Despite the fact that I am considering creating, publishing and maintaining a personal website I do have my doubts about the value of personal websites and about the time and effort involved. Also, I feel that there is perhaps too much time being devoted to the subject on the Forum.
I use both brochure advertising and property listing sites and together they produce a good level of business. I have my reservations about whether or not a personal website would improve the situation at all. In addition, I have the feeling that a professionally produced website would be much better than anything I could produce and should/would include Search Engine optimisation. On that last point, I don’t see how it is possible to maintain a presence on the first two or three pages of any search results. Failing that, what visibility would a personal website give me?
The vast majority of my guests, first timers or returnees, coming through brochures or the Internet, make contact through the telephone or e-mail. When they want brochures, further details, route plans or booking forms they want them either e-mailed or posted, they never ask to be directed to yet another website; “been there, done that, got the t-shirt�. Using Adobe Acrobat documents I am totally geared up for both methods of communication.
I hasten to add; not in any way is this meant as a criticism of the Forum. It is a personal observation on the thinking behind one of its many threads. Nevertheless, it is an interesting thread.
Alan
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sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
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Most of what you say underlines my point that owners' web-sites are a marketing tool and not a sales tool.
It is perfectly possible to build sites which the search engines love but nonetheless full of the hyperbole, poor English, estate-agent speak and assorted gibberish - some of the malapropisms which I see on sites found by search engines make me hoot - but they don’t make me buy. Search engines don’t notice things like that.
There are engines being built now with the technology required to perform heuristic interpolated searches. These will do the stuff we want and enquirers will, perhaps, be able to find our sites without the village name. For now I am content if my web-site gives an insight into my houses even if I need to point enquiries to it
Not so. Search engines like words - people like pictures. Search engines like correctly formatted HTML with tags closed, Hn formatting and all that other good stuff - people don't have the slightest interest in that (well, normal people anyway). Search engines like sites optimised for search engines - else there would be no need to invent this SEO thing - people like a different optimisation. Search engines judge relevance by analysis of verbal content and keywords used in searches. People form a judgement based on what they actually want to see rather than the contrived and necessarily specific list of keywords which they enter.Ultimately, people and search engines want the same thing - good, relevant content.
It is perfectly possible to build sites which the search engines love but nonetheless full of the hyperbole, poor English, estate-agent speak and assorted gibberish - some of the malapropisms which I see on sites found by search engines make me hoot - but they don’t make me buy. Search engines don’t notice things like that.
There are engines being built now with the technology required to perform heuristic interpolated searches. These will do the stuff we want and enquirers will, perhaps, be able to find our sites without the village name. For now I am content if my web-site gives an insight into my houses even if I need to point enquiries to it
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sleekitbeastie
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:04 am
I'm sorry if I have been misunderstood. It was I who felt open to a charge of being an apostate. I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else was. If such an inference was taken then I apologise unreservedly.“Apostasy� - I haven’t abandoned my principles by being a member and I hope you haven’t either.
Sleekitbeastie,
That's why I say it's worth making the effort of having a page or pages on the local area, things to do and see, etc. It's not 'necessary', because people can research the area elsewhere if they really want to find out about it, but it's appreciated by both a search engine and a person.
If you're an SEO expert, then yes you can 'fool' the search engines to boost your ranking. But all SEO experts whose views I have read (the white hats, not the black hats), agree that content is king. Algorithms change constantly, your site can go up and down like a yo-yo if all you have are SEO tricks.
And it is possible to write using keywords without fouling up the flow for the human reader. I know the sort of site you are talking about - high on a search engine, but when you click through to it, you leave again as soon as you can.
Good content also gets you inbound links, which is the other criterion for the search engines.
My experience is that I have noticed a marked improvement in the enquiries I get, probably a doubling, since I added personal websites to the 7 listing sites I use. So for me, it's very much a primary advertising/marketing/sales tool.
Is there really a difference? Whether someone first encounters your house through your website, or is referred to it by you, it still has to do the job of convincing visitors that this is THE one.Most of what you say underlines my point that owners' web-sites are a marketing tool and not a sales tool.
That's true, but pictures without text don't sell anything. And I do count pictures as part of the content, at least for people.Search engines like words - people like pictures.
That's why I say it's worth making the effort of having a page or pages on the local area, things to do and see, etc. It's not 'necessary', because people can research the area elsewhere if they really want to find out about it, but it's appreciated by both a search engine and a person.
If you're an SEO expert, then yes you can 'fool' the search engines to boost your ranking. But all SEO experts whose views I have read (the white hats, not the black hats), agree that content is king. Algorithms change constantly, your site can go up and down like a yo-yo if all you have are SEO tricks.
And it is possible to write using keywords without fouling up the flow for the human reader. I know the sort of site you are talking about - high on a search engine, but when you click through to it, you leave again as soon as you can.
Good content also gets you inbound links, which is the other criterion for the search engines.
My experience is that I have noticed a marked improvement in the enquiries I get, probably a doubling, since I added personal websites to the 7 listing sites I use. So for me, it's very much a primary advertising/marketing/sales tool.
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
I do hope you are wrong! The nice thing is that one can pick and choose which areas of the Forum are of interest. Some parts of the Forum are a bit “techi� but many are not. Some people would say am I am a bit of a “techi�, others would say I am not.The great majority of rental owners will never make it onto a forum like this because it's technologically too daunting.
I am sure there was no offence meant and there was certainly none taken.I'm sorry if I have been misunderstood. It was I who felt open to a charge of being an apostate. I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else was. If such an inference was taken then I apologise unreservedly
May I try to sum up? For those who have the tools, the ability, the time and the inclination a personal website can be an advantage. For those who do not have one or more of those things there is not much lost in not having a personal website. Does that add up?
Alan
Alan,
People often enquire about more than one property, and you have to beat the others. Some will respond to the enquiry by confirming availability and sending a booking form and rental agreement,which is fine. But I think it is better to send a friendly, chatty email, confirming availability and price, etc. and including a link to your website. On a listing site they will have seen perhaps 4 pictures, whereas now you can show them everything you want to to persuade them to choose your house.
You are doing the same thing when you email a PDF brochure, but a website can also be found in other ways, as detailed above.
Another thing I have noticed since I made my own website - when someone asks about a booked week I no longer say 'sorry, maybe next year', I say, 'unfortunately it's booked, see more of the house here for future reference'. I now get many more replies saying how lovely everything looks, and when is the closest week when there IS availability.
And, while I sit here scratching my head for reasons you should make your own site, here is another one - on 4 or 5 occasions this year an enthusiastic renter has said to me that they have forwarded my site to everyone they know/work with. I know for sure that this has resulted in two weeks of bookings, and who knows how many more in the future.
It was a time-consuming business putting the site together, but I enjoyed it, you forget about the frustrations when you see the result, and it was definitely worth it.
What do others think?
I find a personal website very useful for convincing people who are making an enquiry rather than a booking.The vast majority of my guests, first timers or returnees, coming through brochures or the Internet, make contact through the telephone or e-mail. When they want brochures, further details, route plans or booking forms they want them either e-mailed or posted, they never ask to be directed to yet another website; “been there, done that, got the t-shirt�. Using Adobe Acrobat documents I am totally geared up for both methods of communication.
People often enquire about more than one property, and you have to beat the others. Some will respond to the enquiry by confirming availability and sending a booking form and rental agreement,which is fine. But I think it is better to send a friendly, chatty email, confirming availability and price, etc. and including a link to your website. On a listing site they will have seen perhaps 4 pictures, whereas now you can show them everything you want to to persuade them to choose your house.
You are doing the same thing when you email a PDF brochure, but a website can also be found in other ways, as detailed above.
Another thing I have noticed since I made my own website - when someone asks about a booked week I no longer say 'sorry, maybe next year', I say, 'unfortunately it's booked, see more of the house here for future reference'. I now get many more replies saying how lovely everything looks, and when is the closest week when there IS availability.
And, while I sit here scratching my head for reasons you should make your own site, here is another one - on 4 or 5 occasions this year an enthusiastic renter has said to me that they have forwarded my site to everyone they know/work with. I know for sure that this has resulted in two weeks of bookings, and who knows how many more in the future.
It was a time-consuming business putting the site together, but I enjoyed it, you forget about the frustrations when you see the result, and it was definitely worth it.
What do others think?
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Agreed, but.... one proviso - if you're in the latter camp you can pay someone to do it for you, and if that someone is good at it, and not too expensive, it's certainly worth it. A good pro will usually make a more effective, more attractive site than a beginner.May I try to sum up? For those who have the tools, the ability, the time and the inclination a personal website can be an advantage. For those who do not have one or more of those things there is not much lost in not having a personal website. Does that add up?
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
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livinginitaly
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:46 pm
- Location: Italy (at last!)
- Contact:
I ask everyone who contacts me about developing a website for them the same question, that is "why do you want a website?".
Many people don't realise the amount of effort that goes into 'marketing' a website and that's 'after' you've paid out the 100s if not 1000s to get it off the ground.
If you are not prepared to put in the time and effort to 'market' your site or to allocate a marketing budget to have someone else do it on your behalf, then there are only two reasons why you should have a website at all. Which are ...
1 - It's a 'status' thing. If someone 'down the road' has a business offering a similar product, at a similar cost, then having a website that you can refer people to could provide a little extra 'edge'.
2 - I want my own email address. Yes, you don't need a website to have your own email address, but people that you contact via email will probably take a look at your 'address' to see if they can find out more information on you. Having at least one page showing a little background is only common sense.
Most people on this forum are marketing via the many Rental Listing sites and i'd say 'pound for pound' (or euro for euro) that this is the best way to spend a limited budget. Websites cost money / time, websites that actually 'work' cost even more money / time!
In any posts i've made on this forum or any other, i believe i can wholehearted say i've never attempted to talk anyone into 'buying' a website. If anything, i've probably talked a few people out of it.
What i hope i have done though, is to encourage people to 'try it themselves' ...... it's a very rewarding experience for those people who have the time. To refer back to Paolo's comments on gardening, yes it's very similar. I wouldn't get half the satisfaction from looking out onto a garden i'd paid someone to do for me!
Many people don't realise the amount of effort that goes into 'marketing' a website and that's 'after' you've paid out the 100s if not 1000s to get it off the ground.
If you are not prepared to put in the time and effort to 'market' your site or to allocate a marketing budget to have someone else do it on your behalf, then there are only two reasons why you should have a website at all. Which are ...
1 - It's a 'status' thing. If someone 'down the road' has a business offering a similar product, at a similar cost, then having a website that you can refer people to could provide a little extra 'edge'.
2 - I want my own email address. Yes, you don't need a website to have your own email address, but people that you contact via email will probably take a look at your 'address' to see if they can find out more information on you. Having at least one page showing a little background is only common sense.
Most people on this forum are marketing via the many Rental Listing sites and i'd say 'pound for pound' (or euro for euro) that this is the best way to spend a limited budget. Websites cost money / time, websites that actually 'work' cost even more money / time!
In any posts i've made on this forum or any other, i believe i can wholehearted say i've never attempted to talk anyone into 'buying' a website. If anything, i've probably talked a few people out of it.
What i hope i have done though, is to encourage people to 'try it themselves' ...... it's a very rewarding experience for those people who have the time. To refer back to Paolo's comments on gardening, yes it's very similar. I wouldn't get half the satisfaction from looking out onto a garden i'd paid someone to do for me!
Alan,
What I meant about the forum being technologically daunting for most rental owners is not the topics being discussed here, but the fact that it is an online forum and is a little more technically challenging than emailing. This is what I hear in the emails I get. Perhaps it isn't true of 'most' owners, but many anyway.
What I meant about the forum being technologically daunting for most rental owners is not the topics being discussed here, but the fact that it is an online forum and is a little more technically challenging than emailing. This is what I hear in the emails I get. Perhaps it isn't true of 'most' owners, but many anyway.
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Paolo, I would agree that many owners (and generally speaking most internet surfers) find forums difficult to understand and use - what I love about laymyhat.com forum is that you give people a head start and the 'how to use the forum' thread is something I have not seen on any other forum I have visited.
So hat's off to you there..
With regard to personal websites, I've heard from people who have spent hundreds of getting a professional looking website designed - great it looks superb, but how are you going to get bookings or sales if no one is visiting the website?
It depends on what you want from your website, and you have two options, either use it as an information resource for potential customers or market it and make it friendly for the search engines.
That is easily said than done though and another reason why owners need a forum or resource like this to learn how to market their site - search engine forums are too technical in that they use terminology, so this is why these subjects need discussing without terminogy and using "geeky" words
Darren
So hat's off to you there..
With regard to personal websites, I've heard from people who have spent hundreds of getting a professional looking website designed - great it looks superb, but how are you going to get bookings or sales if no one is visiting the website?
It depends on what you want from your website, and you have two options, either use it as an information resource for potential customers or market it and make it friendly for the search engines.
That is easily said than done though and another reason why owners need a forum or resource like this to learn how to market their site - search engine forums are too technical in that they use terminology, so this is why these subjects need discussing without terminogy and using "geeky" words
Darren
Darren - you are becoming my knight in shinning armour 
thank you you've clarified again for me!
lininginitaly...thank you you've just made me rethink yet again...my husband pretty fed up with my conversation now though! - I agree with you - you don't go to the doctor to get a tooth fixed - you go to the dentist because he is supposed to know what he is doing...so I'm perhaps at full circle and looking for someone to build me a web site that can be updated at no extra cost to me but will make sure it is attracting the correct traffic and listings...have I got it right so far
That the web site I want is purely as an extra marketing tool - if it gets me extra bokings from a random search it's a cherry on top.
I think I'm there...so all I need now is someone who knows what they are doing!
I do like the idea of brochure format Alan - is that purely PDF format or can it be downloaded as well from a web site? I have noticed that all out holiday folk have arrived with a printout from holiday-rentals.com however a brochure format would be much nicer for them to carry with even more information re the area/ emergency numbers etc.
thank you you've clarified again for me!lininginitaly...thank you you've just made me rethink yet again...my husband pretty fed up with my conversation now though! - I agree with you - you don't go to the doctor to get a tooth fixed - you go to the dentist because he is supposed to know what he is doing...so I'm perhaps at full circle and looking for someone to build me a web site that can be updated at no extra cost to me but will make sure it is attracting the correct traffic and listings...have I got it right so far
That the web site I want is purely as an extra marketing tool - if it gets me extra bokings from a random search it's a cherry on top.
I think I'm there...so all I need now is someone who knows what they are doing!
I do like the idea of brochure format Alan - is that purely PDF format or can it be downloaded as well from a web site? I have noticed that all out holiday folk have arrived with a printout from holiday-rentals.com however a brochure format would be much nicer for them to carry with even more information re the area/ emergency numbers etc.
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livinginitaly
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:46 pm
- Location: Italy (at last!)
- Contact:
lol, in my efforts to convince people that they maybe shouldn't be paying out for a website, i've managed to convince Tansy that maybe she should! Oh dear, now i really am confused!
Now, to go some way to show that i'm not applying expert 'reverse psychology' ...... how about we 'team up' and go one further than a 'how to' guide by developing a purpose built 'Property Rental Website'?
Tansy, you would obviously be the main beneficiary by getting a free website (though it may cost around £6 for a domain name), but i believe that during the 'process' we'd all learn something from seeing things from anothers perspective.
I'd be only too happy to set up free hosting and assist with page design / graphics / seo ...... any other takers?
Paolo, I believe it'd make a great article for your site and have to say (with my mercenary hat on) it would only bring 'good press' for all involved.
Now, to go some way to show that i'm not applying expert 'reverse psychology' ...... how about we 'team up' and go one further than a 'how to' guide by developing a purpose built 'Property Rental Website'?
Tansy, you would obviously be the main beneficiary by getting a free website (though it may cost around £6 for a domain name), but i believe that during the 'process' we'd all learn something from seeing things from anothers perspective.
I'd be only too happy to set up free hosting and assist with page design / graphics / seo ...... any other takers?
Paolo, I believe it'd make a great article for your site and have to say (with my mercenary hat on) it would only bring 'good press' for all involved.
Tony,
I was thinking the same thing, but wondering if anyone else would be willing to give up their time for free, and probably for no benefit to themselves. I also wondered how one would control the babel of differing opinions without offending anyone.
But if you're up for it so am I, I think it would be an interesting project and would provide a useful step-by-step guide to show people what is involved.
Tansy, if you're interested, you could be the guinea-pig!
I was thinking the same thing, but wondering if anyone else would be willing to give up their time for free, and probably for no benefit to themselves. I also wondered how one would control the babel of differing opinions without offending anyone.
But if you're up for it so am I, I think it would be an interesting project and would provide a useful step-by-step guide to show people what is involved.
Tansy, if you're interested, you could be the guinea-pig!
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat