Yet another new law on tourism rentals......

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pjmatos
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Post by pjmatos »

casasantoestevo wrote:Would not an offical invoice be made in the language of the country?
No.
casasantoestevo wrote:One cannot add VAT to a bill in Portugal it would surly have to be written as IVA.
Yes, one can, since 2010.
Member States may, however, not impose a general requirement that invoices be translated
SOURCE: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 008:EN:PDF
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Post by teba18 »

Article in today's Daily Telegraph about France - says 'a person exercising an activity in one member state is only subject to social security regulations of that member state'. As part of all this change in Portugal includes social security payments, I'm now wondering - if we take all our rentals in the UK and process all payments through a UK bank, but the actual property is in Portugal, which member state is our activity in?
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Post by pjmatos »

teba18 wrote:Article in today's Daily Telegraph about France - says 'a person exercising an activity in one member state is only subject to social security regulations of that member state'. As part of all this change in Portugal includes social security payments, I'm now wondering - if we take all our rentals in the UK and process all payments through a UK bank, but the actual property is in Portugal, which member state is our activity in?
Out of curiosity, I found this:
Non-residents receiving income from a Portuguese source, e.g. from letting their Portuguese home, should instruct their fiscal representative to file an income tax declaration on their behalf (if they’re unable to do it themselves)
I would ask people from the website where this was written as they seem to have a lot of knowledge about foreign investment in Portugal:
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Portu ... allowances
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Post by e-richard »

teba18 wrote: if we take all our rentals in the UK and process all payments through a UK bank, but the actual property is in Portugal, which member state is our activity in?
I would ask Google.

They take their money in a country other than where the transaction takes place. Or put another way, they pay tax in the country of their choice.
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Post by CSE »

pjmatos I read the link you provided. However I feel it is about invoicing inter-community not within one country. If one's business is in Portugal you do not sell outside Portugal this the information you posted about is not lawful under Portuguese law. If one's base of business in a certain country you have to be within the laws of said country. If they adopt a EU directive then that is ok. When it comes to adoption of EU directives each country has a different take on said directive.
However what is certain is that the EU say that matters of taxes are a matter of each country.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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Post by pjmatos »

e-richard wrote:
teba18 wrote: if we take all our rentals in the UK and process all payments through a UK bank, but the actual property is in Portugal, which member state is our activity in?
I would ask Google.

They take their money in a country other than where the transaction takes place. Or put another way, they pay tax in the country of their choice.
Google doesn't do business with properties in Portugal and therefore doesn't need to address Portuguese laws regarding Alojamento Local, rules of municipalities, energy certifications, foreigners registrations etc.

For instance, Google is not required to communicate the names and other personal data of each person who stays in a portuguese property, you and teba18 are.

Even if you are only talking about taxes, are you sure whether paying them on a different country where the transaction takes place is possible? What is the definition of place regarding software?
Last edited by pjmatos on Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pjmatos
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Post by pjmatos »

casasantoestevo wrote:pjmatos I read the link you provided. However I feel it is about invoicing inter-community not within one country. If one's business is in Portugal you do not sell outside Portugal this the information you posted about is not lawful under Portuguese law. If one's base of business in a certain country you have to be within the laws of said country. If they adopt a EU directive then that is ok. When it comes to adoption of EU directives each country has a different take on said directive.
However what is certain is that the EU say that matters of taxes are a matter of each country.
Sorry, I didn't fully understand.
Are you talking about the Just Landed link?
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Post by CSE »

Not at all I the reply to your message (and quoting) to us.
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Post by Essar »

Have you noticed that all the big companies who have been using the tax havens within the EU to minimise their VAT charges to users have issued notices that from the 1st January 2015 their fees will be charged plus the VAT/IVA applicable in the buyers country of residence/business. Skype, PayPal, Google and eBay have all notified me about this; some operate from Ireland and some from Luxembourg. For example, eBay now charge 15% (the Luxembourg IVA rate), from the 1.1.15 they will charge me 20% VAT (my countries rate).
So, from this I would think that if we are elligible to charge VAT with the appropriate turnover applicable to your juristiction then you would have to charge VAT at the rate applicable in the guests own country. This of course is utter rubbish; how would you administer it; of course in the UK any sales outside the UK are zero-rated so that doesn't add up either. Boy am I glad I fall under the VAT threshhold for sales.
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Post by RichardHenshall »

Essar wrote: .... you would have to charge VAT at the rate applicable in the guests own country. This of course is utter rubbish; how would you administer it ...
Yes, it's rubbish and you don't need to administer it. :D :D
Essar wrote:... of course in the UK any sales outside the UK are zero-rated so that doesn't add up either. ...
In the context of property rental (in the UK) there, by definition, cannot be any sales outside the UK so it doesn't really matter how large or small your sales are (as VAT, if any, is at the appropriate UK rate).

Amazon, Skype et al provide supply in the country of residence of the recipient/resident and so, once above the relevant threshold, must abide by EU rules and charge VAT at the rate that pertains in the country of the recipient/resident.
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Post by stork »

casasantoestevo wrote:Am I missing something here. Would not an offical invoice be made in the language of the country? One cannot add VAT to a bill in Portugal it would surly have to be written as IVA.
There maybe other examples of differences.
I think you "suffer" from living in a BIG country. If e.g. Estonian companies could only issue invoices in Estonian, I think my Portuguese accountants and tax inspectors (as well as myself) would have a problem.

This would be an impediment to the inner market and should therefore be illegal. I have had invoices in English and German here in Portugal :-)
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Post by stork »

pjmatos wrote:
stork wrote:I know it is a bit late, but we have been using www.weoinvoice. com since 2012. It is free, unless you want your own graphics on it or other modifications.
Just to add that I didn't recommend WeoInvoice because of its limitations - no custom logo as you said, but it also not possible to manage clients nor products - and because of having less users every year considering Alexa stats.

I've also tested it and found it too much basic, which can work for some users, of course. :)
I looked at a couple of alternatives at the time, and what I needed then was a replacement of my paper triplicates :-)

- customer management I have to do somewhere else anyway - I never came across a system that could handle the whole booking process and do SAFT invoices (at least no for money I was prepared to pay)

- Products? I only do services, and as they are house- and date-specific they are all unique.

This is why I suggested it, as the minimum to comply with the law. Of course it is worrying if it is fading away, nice to know as we will probably have to find something else for other reasons.
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Post by pjmatos »

casasantoestevo wrote:pjmatos I read the link you provided. However I feel it is about invoicing inter-community not within one country. If one's business is in Portugal you do not sell outside Portugal this the information you posted about is not lawful under Portuguese law. If one's base of business in a certain country you have to be within the laws of said country. If they adopt a EU directive then that is ok. When it comes to adoption of EU directives each country has a different take on said directive.
However what is certain is that the EU say that matters of taxes are a matter of each country.
Given that directive I think it is perfectly possible within one country only, so I guess I won't have any problem if I decide to invoice in English someone living in Portugal.
You can imagine that you have a client living in your own country but that only only understands English and wants an invoice that he/she can read.

You may also want to read this interesting artcile, where actually I got the main information:
http://www.rcrempresas.com/articles/fat ... strangeira

It is written in Portuguese, though.
If you cannot translate it properly or don't understand something, please tell me.
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pjmatos
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Post by pjmatos »

stork wrote:- customer management I have to do somewhere else anyway - I never came across a system that could handle the whole booking process and do SAFT invoices (at least no for money I was prepared to pay)
I know and also guess it will only be useful for returning customers. ;)
stork wrote:- Products? I only do services, and as they are house- and date-specific they are all unique.
Also know, but it is possible to create services as products.
You can have several rates per day (low, medium and high season) and then invoice that product multiplied by the number of days.
You also never know when you could start selling other products/services. :)
stork wrote:This is why I suggested it, as the minimum to comply with the law. Of course it is worrying if it is fading away, nice to know as we will probably have to find something else for other reasons.
I guess it's not yet time to start getting seriously worried, but I again recommend Moloni.
They are going to offer Android and iOS solutions next year.

I just wished that they already had the affiliate program active, you might want to wait for that time so I can give you a code :roll:
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Post by pjmatos »

Essar wrote:Have you noticed that all the big companies who have been using the tax havens within the EU to minimise their VAT charges to users have issued notices that from the 1st January 2015 their fees will be charged plus the VAT/IVA applicable in the buyers country of residence/business. Skype, PayPal, Google and eBay have all notified me about this; some operate from Ireland and some from Luxembourg. For example, eBay now charge 15% (the Luxembourg IVA rate), from the 1.1.15 they will charge me 20% VAT (my countries rate).
So, from this I would think that if we are elligible to charge VAT with the appropriate turnover applicable to your juristiction then you would have to charge VAT at the rate applicable in the guests own country. This of course is utter rubbish; how would you administer it; of course in the UK any sales outside the UK are zero-rated so that doesn't add up either. Boy am I glad I fall under the VAT threshhold for sales.
I completely disagree.
Utter rubbish is having Portuguese companies like Pingo Doce - with hundreds of supermarkets in Portugal - being taxed in Holland.

And you don't need to worry about taxing VAT for anyone from EU but not living in Portugal, there's no VAT applied.
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