Lay My Hat home page Lay My Hat Forum
The forum for holiday rental owners


 
  FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups    RegisterRegister  
  ProfileProfile    Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages    Log inLog in 

Co2 in the news again
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lay My Hat Forum Index -> Managing your garden and pool
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
teapot



Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 819
Location: Loire valley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:21 am    Post subject: Co2 in the news again Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-33369024

A subject close to my heart;
Pools are the most expensive to run domestic appliance, therefore the pump and filtration use more electricity which in turn means more Co2.

Chlorine kills what it can in under a minute.
Anything not killed must be filtered out.
Sand doesn’t filter fine enough so you waste money/electricity recirculating dirt you are only catching the bigger stuff.
Too rapid filtration speed also breaks up trapped particles and recirculates them as well
People are focused on turnover rates but that’s nonsense if you are not actually removing the dirt etc from the water you are just recirculating it.
So you can afford to waste your money? You like handing €300 per season to EDF etc?
The cost doesn’t end there. Outside of your balance sheet is the world and the co2 production. The worlds oceans are becoming more acidic and on the present course will begin to see the see life dying by 2050.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081124-acidic-oceans.html
http://www.goesfoundation.com/
http://www.awi.de/en/news/background/climate_change/are_the_oceans_becoming_more_acidic/
The use of power is the production of co2 so we must use less power where we can in the case of a swimming pool this IMPROVES the water quality so it’s a benefit NOT a loss.
My pool setup according to a University co2 calculator is producing 128kg of co2 per season. A conventional pool of similar size 2056kg of co2 and Desjoyeux, Magiline etc using mono block filtration over 4000kg (that’s 4 tons) of co2 per season.
There are an estimated 1 million domestic pools in france, leaving out the unfortunate Desjoyeux and Magiline owners, if the rest switched to Eco it would save a colossal amount of co2
128,000 tons of co2 running Eco VS 2million tons of co2 running as they are now.
It improves water quality.
It reduces chemical usage.
It saves money.
Using less electricity produces less co2.
Reduces the number of power stations and wind farms.
_________________
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
French Cricket



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3061
Location: French Pyrénées

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: Co2 in the news again Reply with quote

teapot wrote:

My pool setup according to a University co2 calculator is producing 128kg of co2 per season. A conventional pool of similar size 2056kg of co2 and Desjoyeux, Magiline etc using mono block filtration over 4000kg (that’s 4 tons) of co2 per season.


Wow, teapot, those figures are extraordinary.

We don't have - or want - a pool, but I'm interested in the Co2 thing (I was involved for a few years in the UK in carbon offset). I'm really shocked by what you've written - multiply that by pools all over southern Europe and ... aargh Shocked
_________________
Holiday retreat for grown-ups in the French Pyrenees
French Foothills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PW in Polemi



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1765
Location: A village in Paphos, Cyprus

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've got solar panels generating photo voltaic electricity to pump both our home pool and the pool at the cottage. The only time we revert to the electric pumps is on the very rare (and unwelcome) occasion when OH absolutely must circulate the water to distribute chemicals or needs to hoover the pool and there is insufficient energy being produced.

We've also got a 3KW bank of panels at home also busily generating electricity every daylight hour. Since having them installed, we have not had to pay for a single unit of electricity used at home. Very Happy
_________________
Dogs have masters. Cats have slaves!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1349
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PW in Polemi wrote:
We've also got a 3KW bank of panels at home also busily generating electricity every daylight hour. Since having them installed, we have not had to pay for a single unit of electricity used at home. Very Happy

That's most interesting PW. What sort of square area would a 3KW bank take up? Any chance of a photo of what you have installed? If that would be difficult to do (a photo I mean), please ignore request.
_________________
www.athenagreece.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
teapot



Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 819
Location: Loire valley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Co2 in the news again Reply with quote

French Cricket wrote:
teapot wrote:

My pool setup according to a University co2 calculator is producing 128kg of co2 per season. A conventional pool of similar size 2056kg of co2 and Desjoyeux, Magiline etc using mono block filtration over 4000kg (that’s 4 tons) of co2 per season.


Wow, teapot, those figures are extraordinary.

We don't have - or want - a pool, but I'm interested in the Co2 thing (I was involved for a few years in the UK in carbon offset). I'm really shocked by what you've written - multiply that by pools all over southern Europe and ... aargh Shocked

Yes I know, the figures shocked me and I am no mathematician so double and triple checked with the Universities calculator. 2,000,000 tons of Co2 just for Frances domestic pools!
The biggest obstacle is the thicker than you could ever imagine pool industry and the occasional poster on AI etc.

If there was a single negative point it would be different but the water improves, the maintenance is reduced, the equipment lasts longer and we drastically cut Co2 and the savings pay for the conversion in a couple of seasons, better obviously to start with a new pool design.
_________________
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world


Last edited by teapot on Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
teapot



Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 819
Location: Loire valley

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PW in Polemi wrote:
We've got solar panels generating photo voltaic electricity to pump both our home pool and the pool at the cottage. The only time we revert to the electric pumps is on the very rare (and unwelcome) occasion when OH absolutely must circulate the water to distribute chemicals or needs to hoover the pool and there is insufficient energy being produced.

We've also got a 3KW bank of panels at home also busily generating electricity every daylight hour. Since having them installed, we have not had to pay for a single unit of electricity used at home. Very Happy

Nice PW, I have considered using PV for my setup but with such low energy use the payback on the equipment is quite a long time. How would your electricity benefit if the pool only used 1/10th of what it currently uses? would it take the load off the other household items?
My 8m x 4m only uses 30 watts with no swimmers and 60 watts when swimmers are in the pool, I will try reducing this even more from 60 watts to 50 watts to see if it makes much difference, can't go down much on the 30 watts as skimmers don't really work below that. With a new prototype filter on the way I hope to improve on the standard filters available.
_________________
Passivpool Energy "A" rated Swimming Pools, the most efficient, lowest running cost pools in the world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zorba



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Agios Dimitrianos Paphos Cyprus

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PW in Polemi has asked me to reply with the technicals.

In 2011 we installed Lorentz DC pool pumps at our home and the holiday cottage. The DC pumps run in tandem with the normal pump and then the normal pump acts as a standby. The pool pumps require 3 x 235W panels and run automatically every daylight hour, even in the rain. You don't need much space for these, just uninterrupted sunlight all day facing south. A picture of our holiday cottage panels is on our website www.cyprus-holidaycottage.com. The cost in Cyprus to install a Lorentz pool pump system is about £2500 euro. There is plenty of power for filtering and vaccing, although my preference is to backwash with mains electricity as it is slightly more powerful.

In Cyprus we can (with permission) also install net metering of up to a nominal 3KW. This means we generate electricity all day and upload it into the national grid. When we need electricity, mainly at night we draw down off the grid. We only pay for the net consumption, power consumed minus power generated. Any savings are carried forward to the winter. We installed a nominal 3KW over 12 X 250W panels in 2013 at a cost of about €6000 and have not had a single chargeable unit since. Plus we've saved a considerable amount on our gas central heating by using the spare electricity generated over the summer months. Meanwhile, the pool, on its own separate system, pumps for at least 6 hours a day, summer and winter, at no cost.

I can't work out how to attach a picture, but very approximately the pool pump panels cover about 4.5 sq meters set at 45% and 3KW for domestic use is 12 X 250W panels taking up about 18 sq meters also at 45%.

Anyone really interested I can email pictures.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1349
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorba wrote:
In Cyprus we can (with permission) also install net metering of up to a nominal 3KW. This means we generate electricity all day and upload it into the national grid. When we need electricity, mainly at night we draw down off the grid. We only pay for the net consumption, power consumed minus power generated. Any savings are carried forward to the winter. We installed a nominal 3KW over 12 X 250W panels in 2013 at a cost of about €6000 and have not had a single chargeable unit since.

Thank you Zorba and PW in Polemi. That makes it very clear to me what is involved and what could be gained in savings and ecologically (in a modest way). I have already been out with the tape measure and, although we would have liked to have place the panels more discretely, it looks like the roof will be the best place, because there is no shadow from anywhere.

Like Cyprus, there is a lot of sunshine where we live and sun-derived electricity is of interest to quite a few people these days. It is also being done commercially by private enterprise, where whole olive groves have been cleared to make way for banks of these solar panels, some of which rotate to follow the sun. I have to say that they don't exactly fit into the scenery.
_________________
www.athenagreece.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zorba



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Agios Dimitrianos Paphos Cyprus

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew I have done a bit of research on Net Metering for Greece. (Cyprus is not Greece although ABTA don't seem to understand that, as they put up notices at Gatwick saying "Cypriot banks were closed").Sad

This article seemed the most helpful.
http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/greece-applies-generous-net-metering-_100017732/#axzz3euDrP9Hz

20KW of panels is a lot and unless you are a supermarket you will never be able to use it all. We find 3KW enough for our home, and as so many homes have PV net metering 3KW is the limit allowed in Cyprus.
Basically we use about 10KWH units every day and make anything from 4KWH on a cloudy winter day to 18KWH on a cool summer day. (Unfortunately the hotter it gets the less electricity they produce.) I keep an excel chart for every 8 week billing cycle, going back to Sept 13. However our pool has its own PV panels and DC pump so does not come into the above.

It is very important to get your panels due south or as near as possible. I just measured one of my 250W panels and it is 1M X1.65M. You can put these in any configuration, but a 45% pitch is best.
Finally my advice is to buy the best German panels & inverter , the Chinese ones can be "iffy".

If you want to see a few pictures of my set up and the excel file PM me your email address.

Back on the subject of CO2 emissions - almost every house in Cyprus has solar water heating - it has been a building regulation for years. We have a latest generation hot water panels and tank that is so good we have to cover up half of the panels in summer to stop the water from getting too hot. In winter we have to use the immersion heater very very occasionally then only for 15 or 30 minutes. A couple of thousand euro buys the and fits the whole thing, why is it not popular elsewhere?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
French Cricket



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3061
Location: French Pyrénées

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorba wrote:

A couple of thousand euro buys the and fits the whole thing, why is it not popular elsewhere?


That's something I've wondered for a very long time, Zorba, ever since I used to holiday in Greece. Here in France most new builds are now BBC (batiment basse consumption - low energy building) and the building norms are now much stricter on all that, mostly around insulation ... but even down here in the south in spite of plenty of sun there's no requirement or even encouragement for solar water heating.

We've looked into retro-fitting it onto our old farmhouse but sadly the shallow slope of the roof - a bit under 30%, which is typical of our area - and our orientation make it a non starter.
_________________
Holiday retreat for grown-ups in the French Pyrenees
French Foothills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zorba



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Agios Dimitrianos Paphos Cyprus

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

French Cricket wrote:

We've looked into retro-fitting it onto our old farmhouse but sadly the shallow slope of the roof - a bit under 30%, which is typical of our area - and our orientation make it a non starter.


My neighbour has his solar water heating at ground level and has a pumped system. These pressurised systems are very common here in Cyprus. Again due south and 45% pitch is best.

Unlike much of France we get little or no frost in Cyprus, so I would advise indirect panels without water or vacuum rods if you live an area likely to drop below freezing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zingara



Joined: 09 Apr 2013
Posts: 606
Location: Antibes, PACA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We installed a 16kW (64 panel) ground mounted system (in the UK) at the end of last year...even with the amount we generate (up to 110kW per day), if a cloud goes over, we will sometimes still draw from the grid in daylight.
There are units (eg Immersun) which will divert any feedback to (say) an immersion heater, but the real breakthrough will come with 'domestic' batteries, that aren't the size of a substation. Lithium ion, and possibly hydrogen cells are probably the way things are going. Bosch are already advertising them:

[url]http://bosch-solar-storage.com/the-solar-power-storage-tank/the-system/

These will smooth the flow, and allow one to use the solar generated power at night.

We have also installed water-based underfloor heating, and should be able to move to 'solar' heating, which will back up a log-burning Rayburn...I suspect we'll still need to use some oil on occasions.

Our break-even point for the array should be 5.5-6y, depending what happens to the FIT.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zorba



Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 200
Location: Agios Dimitrianos Paphos Cyprus

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zingara

It does not sound like you were on "net metering" in the UK. With net metering the mains grid acts as your battery, with no loss. Batteries might in time be an alternative, but not yet.

Not completely sure, but are you confusing a grid tied system with net metering?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zingara



Joined: 09 Apr 2013
Posts: 606
Location: Antibes, PACA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, we only have a grid tied system...and I was deviating off-point, really...sunnier clime residents I think make more use of solar energy: it would be nice to encourage the more northerly ones to consider it as an option, particularly if they are needing to replace ageing, less CO2 efficient systems.... Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1349
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorba wrote:
Andrew I have done a bit of research on Net Metering for Greece.

If you want to see a few pictures of my set up and the excel file PM me your email address.


Thanks, Zorba for giving me the link to that article on Greece and the other information - very interesting and I was unaware of all that. I have PMed you my email address to send photo(s) - very grateful.
_________________
www.athenagreece.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Lay My Hat Forum Index -> Managing your garden and pool All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group