New Smoke and Carbon Monoxide alarm regulations

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Ben McNevis
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New Smoke and Carbon Monoxide alarm regulations

Post by Ben McNevis »

I see that this takes effect on October 10th. I can't see anything to say whether or not the regs apply to holiday lets, but I expect they do.

It means we need 2 CO detectors in the Wee Hoose and an extra one in the bigger one. Probably a good thing to do whether or not the new regulations apply.

I thought I'd better read the regulations to see whether it applies to holiday lets but very quickly lost the will to live when under "Relevant landlords" comes the paragraph:
"(b)where the premises are occupied under a specified tenancy which is a licence means the licensor, except that where the licensor himself or herself occupies the premises under a specified tenancy which is not a licence, it means the person for the time being entitled to the reversion expectant on that tenancy."
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apexblue
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Post by apexblue »

Thanks for that Ben had not heard. Found this but no mention of holiday rentals. Does this only apply to England?

www.landlordzone.co.uk/content/the-new- ... tions-2015
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apexblue
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Post by apexblue »

Smoke alarms can be wired or battery and need to checked at the beginning of the tenancy. During the tenancy it is the responsibility of the tenants to make sure they are working. Carbon Monoxide alarms are not required if the property is gas or electric heating. Only solid fuel, wood burners & open fires.
Only mention is England.
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Annew
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Post by Annew »

I took this new legislation (which I believe applies only to England) as not applying to holiday lets.

However, I would have thought it good practice to be following the recommendations anyway. Certainly when I had my fire inspection in late 2014 I was told that my smoke alarms and CO2 detectors far exceeding anything necessary in law for a holiday rental property.

Such a grey area :?
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Post by newtimber »

Annew wrote:I took this new legislation (which I believe applies only to England) as not applying to holiday lets.

However, I would have thought it good practice to be following the recommendations anyway. Certainly when I had my fire inspection in late 2014 I was told that my smoke alarms and CO2 detectors far exceeding anything necessary in law for a holiday rental property.

Such a grey area :?
As you have to do a fire risk assessment, you'd have to have good reason to say why they weren't needed and I can't think of any.
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Post by greenbarn »

newtimber wrote:
As you have to do a fire risk assessment, you'd have to have good reason to say why they weren't needed and I can't think of any.
That applies to smoke/heat detectors, but not in fact to CO detectors which don't get a mention in the guidance to the law for accommodation providers Do you have Paying Guests?
That sort of makes sense inasmuch as a CO detector has no purpose for fire detection, but any general risk assessment should identify the need for a CO detector in any room with a heating appliance that uses a naked flame. I don't know if there's any specific regulation covering them in holiday lets, but if there was a related incident and a CO detector wasn't present the owner would be on shaky ground. They're cheap enough and simple enough to fit, so no possible excuse for not having them where necessary.
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Post by Cymraes »

I fitted the CO detector as a CYA measure. If it isn't required now it probably will be at some point and in the event something does go wrong at least I know I've done what I could.
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apexblue
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Post by apexblue »

I've copied this from a forum but it appears the date it comes into effect in England is 1 Oct. It became law according to this in Scotland on 14 May 2014. Wales who knows. Cannot find if it covers holiday rentals.


John Stones 6 DAYS AGO (Reply)

In response to the various comments so far:
1. There has (according to the Gov) been more of a resistance from private landlords to fit working Smoke and CO alarms than social landlords. It is acknowledged that most are responsible but that a number are not.
2. Mandatory fitting of CO alarms in private rented property became law in Scotland on May 14th 2014 under the Housing Scotland Act 2014. Wales is expected to follow.
3. The Building Regs (Part J) only requires CO alarms to be fitted into new builds and then not if they have gas.
4. Much was debated in the Lords last week and the Bill has a number of flaws but the Government have promised to continue to review the issues and will introduce non regulatory practices as soon as possible. The Act will be fully reviewed in 2017.
5. Student Halls and properties rented primarily to students are exempt which does seem crazy but so is the exemption of mains gas which has caused 35% of all coroner recorded deaths by CO over the last 19 years.
6. It has been suggested to LGAs that they finance this extra work by generating revenue from fines. The fine is set at £5K in the Act. They have to do the work so they will have to finance it…
7. There will be no period of grace from October 1st but if anyone is in breach they will have 28 days to put things right. There is a right of appeal.
8. Based on what we are seeing LGA’s will be sensor inclusive testing CO alarms to make sure they are “working” i.e. sensing gas and using smoke aerosols for smoke detectors. The test button on a CO alarm only tests the circuit and not the sensor which has a limited and indeterminable life, they wont be able to test smoke alarms with a source of real smoke such as joss stick, cigarette or burning toast.
9. Holiday Parks (caravans etc) are included but Residential Park Homes are exempt. The largest park operator in the UK consider LPG as a solid fuel and will continue to install and sensor inclusively test their CO alarms on each change over. Landlords must check on each change over and provide evidence to this effect.
10. For the low cost involved and the potential to save lives and injury it is surely best to fit the alarms and have done with it but make sure that you test them properly to ensure that they are working on installation (16% of CO alarms have been found to fail out of the box by an independent study) and at least annually thereafter. You could be unwittingly caught out by officers from Environmental Health if your alarms are not working i.e. sensing smoke and sensing CO
It is better to remain quiet and have one think you are stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....

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Albert's quite perplexed
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Post by Albert's quite perplexed »

I'm a bit puzzled by this government legislation that's come into effect since 1st October.
I've been happily (well, grumpily) self-assessing my fire risk 'obligations' and doing weekly tests of my Fire and CO alarms, (of course I do! Where did I put that log book?...) but I've had a letter from the Agent who does my bookings and apparently this applies to everybody who lets out properties, even us humble cottage owners -

A full risk assessment must be carried out annually in accordance with LACORS recommendations by a "suitably qualified assessor who is commercially approved and insured."

"All fire detection systems must meet the minimum criteria as set out in the new regulations. Smoke detection equipment must be present on each of the floors and meet assessor's approval together with Carbon Monoxide detectors fitted to all floors where there is fossil fuel burning.

It is now a legal responsibility for owners to ensure that fire detection systems such as smoke and carbon monoxide alarms are tested prior to the commencement of each new tenancy and a log is kept in a safe place which may be required for inspection."

:shock: Yikes! I hope I'm wrong, but the "Annual" inspection "carried out by a suitably qualified assessor" doesn't sound like it'll be a government freebie and unless I (or all of us to whom it pertains) don't comply, it'll probably affect our insurance in the event of a claim.
:twisted: I was quite happy with Self Assessment practices - my place is low risk. This just feels like more government bullying. Grrr.

Oh, BTW - Hi everyone. Might have known my first 'post' would be a grumble.. Ah well, may as well start as I mean to go on! :roll:
Last edited by Albert's quite perplexed on Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Albert's quite perplexed
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Post by Albert's quite perplexed »

Yep - my agent just emailed me back - £65 p.a. for qualified commercial risk assessor, plus anything that needs to be changed. No chance of continuing self assessment unless I've got the relevant 'tickets.'
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Post by Annew »

Hi Perplexed Albert - can your agent quote which piece of the new legislation refers to this - thanks!
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Post by Nemo »

I'll put money on it being your agents "interpretation" of new rules, rather than it being "law" to have an outside assessor.
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Post by greenbarn »

This obviously needs a bit more research, but here's a key point (my bolding):
16. What types of tenancy will be affected?
The regulations apply to any tenancy, lease or licence of residential premises in England that gives somebody the right to occupy all or part of the premises as their only or main residence in return for rent.
That's from an explanatory booklet on the relevant gov website here.

I'm not sure what's actually new; CO detectors are not considered as part of a Fire Risk Assessment and there's no indication of new legislation on the other relevant gov websites; nor do I see anything compelling an owner to have a professional RA done - quite the opposite in fact, the unaltered Do you have paying guests? goes into self-assessment in some detail.

More confusion, more loose interpretation, more ignorance of the FHL business from the legislators, more knee-jerk reaction from agents covering their own arses.
Given the looseness and differences in interpretation by various authorities, what's the chances of a particular assessor coming up with an unnecessarily stringent recommendation, and what happens if you ignore it?

AIUI, and IANAL, the requirement for smoke alarms is inherent within the required Fire RA (self assessed) as has been the case for a long time. CO detectors in rooms with solid fuel appliances is plain common sense; whether it's now obligatory seems debatable, whether you'd get out of jail free if you hadn't fitted one and there was a preventable incident - who knows? You wouldn't deserve to, anyway.
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Post by Nemo »

Here's what I found, which was a news article published in March. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tena ... t-measures

I'm looking back through EASCO news and haven't found anything, so if it affected holiday lets, then I would expect it to be in there.

This appears to be the draft legislation (England only) referring to tenancies, which as we know holiday lets are not. I haven't read it, so feel free to contradict me when you have. :) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/201 ... 439_en.pdf
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Post by Nemo »

Here's another article. All through it refers to tenancies, so I cannot for the life of me see how you would apply that to holiday letting where a tenancy is categorically not created. Yes we should all do what we have been doing in relation to common sense approach, alarms and CO" alarms where appropriate, but my gut feeling still is that agents don't have a clue what they're talking about.

https://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/ ... ents.shtml

Perplexed Albert - you could contact EASCO or become a member. They are the body that works for us to protect our interests and give us guidance on the legislation that affects holiday lets. http://www.englishselfcatering.co.uk/
Last edited by Nemo on Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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