Disrespectful guests

From the moment they step through the door your bookings become guests, and their experiences determine whether they ever come back.
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PW in Polemi
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Post by PW in Polemi »

AngloDutch wrote:As I said, we want to divide up our grounds, so we can keep them penned in, but I have an idea that we are soon going to resemble a zoo. :roll:
So will you be throwing peanuts at your guests, or will they be lobbing stale bread in your direction? :lol: :lol:
Dogs have masters. Cats have slaves!
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

Well, a week later we now have the bill from the carpenter for the new gate - €260. We have sent it through to the agency and we'll have to see what their insurance policy covers. I have a feeling that they're going to try and wriggle out of it because of the age of the gate that was broken. We still hold the guests' €200 security deposit, so as long as the agency insurance doesn't pay up less than €60, we should be OK :wink:
Frenchlady
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Post by Frenchlady »

Interesting you mention Belvilla. We have looked after a property the last couple of years that used that Agency. Mostly Dutch guests. We were not impressed with the agents. We e-mailed them after each changeover to tell them if all was ok so they could return the deposit. If there was a problem they did not seem to know who we were and at one point responded to us as if we were the guests. There was a group (last min booking) that complained about some noise from a neighbour. My OH called over and all seemed to be resolved (they were being unreasonable) and as my OH pointed out the neighbours have to put up with guests being loud around the pool and at night on the terrace. Although it appeared the problem had been sorted and they were ok, when they got back they complained and expected a big refund, which the owner refused to accept. Agencies have their place but would rather deal direct with clients.
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

Frenchlady wrote:Interesting you mention Belvilla. We have looked after a property the last couple of years that used that Agency. Mostly Dutch guests. We were not impressed with the agents. We e-mailed them after each changeover to tell them if all was ok so they could return the deposit. If there was a problem they did not seem to know who we were and at one point responded to us as if we were the guests. There was a group (last min booking) that complained about some noise from a neighbour. My OH called over and all seemed to be resolved (they were being unreasonable) and as my OH pointed out the neighbours have to put up with guests being loud around the pool and at night on the terrace. Although it appeared the problem had been sorted and they were ok, when they got back they complained and expected a big refund, which the owner refused to accept. Agencies have their place but would rather deal direct with clients.

Oh dear, Frenchlady, you too have had some bad experiences with Belvilla and their guests!

When we first started out back in 2005, just about all our bookings came through Belvilla (or Eurorelais as it was then). We just had agency bookings for the first few years until we built up repeat guests and an own website presence.

But since all the changes at the HA group and the reduction in enquiries we are getting from HA, we are again seeing the agencies (including Belvilla) step in to book the availability which would have been filled otherwise by the HA sites.

As mentioned above, we have had several bookings from Belvilla in the last few weeks. Some of their groups are OK, but, like the Belvilla group that managed to break our gate two weeks ago, others are a complete nightmare.

One group from Belvilla caused over €1,500 in damages which was thankfully covered by the insurance that comes with their bookings (teenagers were fooling around on the staircase and one fell backwards and smashed rigtht through a stained glass window. Another of their group then emptied the contents of a red wine bottle over wall to wall carpeting).

Another Belvilla group had a party and played hide and seek in the night, ripping doors off the furniture in the bedrooms and using knives to saw the shelving in the kitchen cupboards. They finally admitted liability and paid some €400 extra in damages and lost their €200 security deposit as well of course.

We find that there is mostly no communication beforehand with agency guests, even though we send them an extra welcome email a few weeks before arrival. Most never reply and do not inform us, as requested by us to do so, if they are going to arrive after 6 p.m. for example. We never know what we're going to get until they arrive. Alot of the Belvilla groups seem to have the idea that they have paid an agency, not an owner and the property is theirs to do with as they see fit for a couple of days over a weekend.

We will never forget the family that came to stay one summer weekend many years ago now. They brought with them a very large pig (not as a pet, as it was dead). They had printed out how to skewer and roast it over a fire. This they did on our patio (yes, they built a fire on the patio stones). The pig was roasted on a spit over our patio, just like in some Robin Hood film. They managed to burn most of the pig because they left the carcass in the rubbish container. We were away that weekend and returned to find the pig's head staring at us through the open lid.
We still have their roasting instructions which they had left behind and it is now in our owners' scrap book, one of many memories that we have of running a holiday home these past 11 years. And yes, they had booked via Belvilla...
Frenchlady
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Post by Frenchlady »

You certainly have had some hair raising experience in your time. We have been looking after properties for home owners for 14 years, had some odd ones but luckily nothing like that. I think perhaps you need to do your own bookings so you can at least get some direct contact with guests and a bit of a feel for who is coming, how many etc. You can always google too and get an idea. I hope your guests this season are very well behaved with not a pig in sight!!!!!
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

Well, we have just received an email from Belvilla saying that as the broken gate was 12 years old, their insurance does not cover it!

They say that a wooden door has a devaluation of 10% per year, so a total devaluation of 120% has occurred on the gate (maybe they expect us to pay the guests the 20% as well!?) and that the gate was in need of being replaced. Yes, we were going to take the gate away later this year but replace it with enlarging the carport next to it, so that the gate would no longer be needed. Now we have paid out €260 to replace it, this replacement gate will no longer be needed in a couple of months when the new carport has been completed.

Oh and Belvilla goes on to say that they expect that the guests' €200 security deposit be returned forthwith. :shock:

My OH has just asked me, just what is the purpose of a security deposit?

What if we had an old but antique car and one of the guests' children dents the car with a log. Would Belvilla say that the car was old and therefore not covered by insurance?

This is very worrying for us. It means that agency guests can break anything (including over on our own property) and the agency will wriggle out of covering the damage and say that the security deposit must be returned.

We feel that we are no longer in charge of our own property. Decisions are made by faceless agencies in favour of their disrespectful and reckless guests. We don't want to hand the €200 back to these people and let them get away with this, but we know that Belvilla will just otherwise deduct the €200 from our next rental payment, if we don't return it.

Imagine this, your guests are in the property next door. The parking is shared between the two properties. Your guests kick a ball on the parking lot and the ball goes over the hedge to the neighbour's property.
Without asking either you or your neighbour, they force access from your property into the neighbours, not once but several times. The gate is pulled right back against a gutter and the stress breaks the metal bracket and the gate is no longer blocking the access to the neighbour's property where a dangerous dog is roaming. The gate, even though it was old, was in perfect working order before and was blocked off with a heavy plank across it, which was removed several times by the guests (children and adults).
The guests try to leave without saying anything. They first refuse to sign the insurance form and say that it's our problem because the gate was rotten.
The agency then says 'no insurance cover' and that their dear customers should get all their deposit returned.

How would you feel and more importantly for us, just what would you do?
linda que linda
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Post by linda que linda »

I would be furious. Is there no way to contest the insurance co.'s decision? The gate had an essential function and had to be replaced so I would think its age irrelevant.
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

linda que linda wrote:I would be furious. Is there no way to contest the insurance co.'s decision? The gate had an essential function and had to be replaced so I would think its age irrelevant.

Linda, tomorrow we receive another booking from this agency. 6 adults and 2 children. I am thinking right now about making the people arriving tomorrow park on a small driveway at the side of their patio. They will then have a view of up to 3 cars infront of them. There is a swing gate leading from the holiday accommodation grounds to the large shared central parking area.
I think we will have to close this gate and padlock it from now on. We did this when we first started (when we accepted a max of 9 guests in total). Since we put extra beds in and could accommodate up to 12 plus babies, we knew that it would mean more and larger cars, so we allowed our guests access to the larger parking area that we were using.

If Belvilla will not protect us from damage amounting to €100s each time it occurs, then we will have no choice than to revert to how we began in 2005. We're sorry for the decent people who come via this agency, but at the moment we just don't know a quick solution, apart from as previously said, to redesign our entire grounds.

We began this thread with a run down of various hidden damages from the group of guests with the handicapped daughter. Because we did not know whether alot of the damage was unintentionally caused by their child and even though the parents didn't appear very forthcoming with letting us know about the breakages and damaged items, we decided to eventually refund the €200 security damage to that group in full and leave it at that. That decision was made after the following group had broken the gate in our garden.

The cost of repair of the gate is much, much higher and those guests' attitude towards us was unbelievable. We don't want them to get away with it. I remember we once posted on an LMH thread all the damage that had occurred at the farmhouse in the year to date. We received quite a few shocked reactions at the huge amount of items that had been damaged, broken or stolen. Most of the cost of which we never recovered.

We are going to reply to Belvilla that either they cover the damage or we keep the security deposit. The guests stayed after all for just €432 plus additional costs. We are hardly going to let the guests get away with leaving €260 of damages behind!
holidayloverxx
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Post by holidayloverxx »

I have used Belvilla for 5 years. My experience is similar. They treat homeowners as an inconvenience not a customer, they take ages to reply (and then the replies are often nonsense) the local agent might as well not be there and since they started using Booking.com I get loads of guests that just don't reply to emails and Belvilla just keep saying the email address is correct and that's that. On the positive side they have always paid insurance promptly on receipt of a quotation for repair/replacement (now they ask for an invoice within 3 months of paying out)...but that said the only damage I have had has been from Belvilla guests - 3 payouts in total. Doesn't matter now - I've paid the mortgage off this week and terminated the contract with them. I will have to honour 1 Belvilla guest next season but apart from that I'm only going to rent a very few weeks to returning guests I can trust. I won't rent at all after next season.
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Post by GillianF »

I've watched this thread with growing incredulity - and horror. I'm not familiar with Belvilla or other agencies and how they work ........ and I don't think I want to get involved with any after reading this thread as it confirms my worst suspicions (and more) about agencies.

So, from a position of no knowledge or experience I would just say that I would definitely challenge the agency as to exactly what the security deposit's purpose is, what the 'insurance' covers. I would demand the cost of the gate (knowing I might not get it) and make myself a real nuisance with calls and asking to speak to senior management. I would also make sure they know I am plastering the internet, forums etc. with the story. You don't seem to be alone in your view of Belvilla.

None of the above might help but I think I would feel a bit better!
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Post by greenbarn »

A thought - your expenditure was necessary to secure the access to a neighbour's property; your neighbour has a large dog that needs containing at all times for your guests' safety and a working gate is an essential. Securing the access was therefore a high priority. The quickest and most cost effective way to achieve this was to effect a repair to the existing damaged gate and its support; the age of the gate is irrelevant, the cost was incurred to make the property safe, not to repair the gate per se. The end result is not a material improvement on the original but an essential repair necessitated by the irresponsible actions of the guests.

I think the stance of this agency is appalling, and I don't accept that they should see fit to write off the entire cost of the gate under any circumstances (depending on how it has been described by the guilty guests of course). Reframing the issue in something like the way I'm suggesting above may make a difference - I'm not convinced; it really shouldn't be necessary, but it might save you some money.
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Post by Bunny »

I agree with GB's tact. This was no accident, but a premeditated act that took several steps to achieve. Not only did they go through your garden, which they knew was restricted, but then went through a gate into a neighbouring private property. So, they have caused damage to a gate which did not even form part of the rental contract. I agree that the age of the gate is irrelevant. The fact is that it was secure before they arrived and now it isn't. You are not trying to gain from the experience, but merely wanting to make it safe again. This is crucial and you are going to incur and expense that you wouldn't have had, had it not been for the guests' inexcusable and indefensible actions.
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Post by AngloDutch »

greenbarn wrote:A thought - your expenditure was necessary to secure the access to a neighbour's property; your neighbour has a large dog that needs containing at all times for your guests' safety and a working gate is an essential. Securing the access was therefore a high priority. The quickest and most cost effective way to achieve this was to effect a repair to the existing damaged gate and its support; the age of the gate is irrelevant, the cost was incurred to make the property safe, not to repair the gate per se. The end result is not a material improvement on the original but an essential repair necessitated by the irresponsible actions of the guests.

I think the stance of this agency is appalling, and I don't accept that they should see fit to write off the entire cost of the gate under any circumstances (depending on how it has been described by the guilty guests of course). Reframing the issue in something like the way I'm suggesting above may make a difference - I'm not convinced; it really shouldn't be necessary, but it might save you some money.

GB, thanks for your suggestion. We will go along these lines when we write back to Belvilla.

We only had time yesterday (as we had a direct changeover) to call Belvilla and tried to speak to the guy who had emailed us from their insurance department but were told that he was very busy and would call us back, but he never did.

We first asked the carpenter who has done quite alot of work for us here over the last 10 years whether the gate could be repaired. Because the support had been ripped out by the force of pulling the gate as far back as possible over a gutter running vertically alongside it, the only thing to do was to make a new gate. On the otherside of the gate is a large oak tree and the new gate had to be specially cut in order to fit against the tree and its trunk. It took several hours to get it right.

We somehow think that the agency believes we are trying to get a new gate out of them. Or that it is our responsibility to replace every fixture on the property after 5 years so that it can't be broken by our guests because we have let it get too old, meaning of course that it is our fault when their insurance will no longer cover it!

The farmhouse (including the holiday accommodation) dates from 1839. Many of the original features are old. Some of these have already been destroyed by guests. For example, we used to have very old wooden posts where the former owners used to tether their horses to iron brackets in the posts. We lost both of them to one set of guests' children who kicked and swung on them until they both snapped. These were not located at the guest side of the property either.

We were always in the belief that Belvilla's insurance covered all damage in the accommodation as long as it's over €25, and not exceeding €2,500 per booking. The guests pay a compulsory 1.5% insurance premium when they book with the agency to cover this kind of damage.

The agency seems to be being much more difficult with covering damage left by their guests than they used to be. We have found several threads on consumer complaint sites where owners have been left out of pocket after Belvilla refused to pay out and expected the owner to return the guests' security deposit as well. Unbelievable that they think that they have the right to police the matter as though they are in complete charge of the running of our property. What is it with these people (HA included) who think they can control our businesses??!!
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

Bunny wrote:I agree with GB's tact. This was no accident, but a premeditated act that took several steps to achieve. Not only did they go through your garden, which they knew was restricted, but then went through a gate into a neighbouring private property. So, they have caused damage to a gate which did not even form part of the rental contract. I agree that the age of the gate is irrelevant. The fact is that it was secure before they arrived and now it isn't. You are not trying to gain from the experience, but merely wanting to make it safe again. This is crucial and you are going to incur and expense that you wouldn't have had, had it not been for the guests' inexcusable and indefensible actions.

Bunny, we did wonder at first whether Belvilla's insurance actually would cover damage to property which doesn't form part of the rental contract. When we emailed the claim form that the guests had signed, we wrote in the email to Belvilla that the guests had accessed a gate from our property into a neighbouring property that we don't own, and then we thought afterwards, maybe they will try to wriggle out of paying out because the damage is not contained to the holiday accommodation or its grounds.
We are sure that Belvilla's insurance wouldn't cover if, for example guests damaged a car on our grounds which belonged say, to friends of ours who were visiting.

It is certainly reassuring to read that other owners think the same as us, and that the age of what has been damaged should be irrelevant. It is not as if we have dropped an old camera and are trying to claim the cost of a new one via our holiday insurance. Belvilla's insurance is there to repay us the costs of damages inflicted by their customers on our property. If we hand back the security deposit as instructed, then everybody wins apart from us, don't they?

When we first started with this agency it was much smaller (it was called Eurorelais) and offered a much more friendly, personal service. We had our own account manager who we could call and email, and who answered us immediately. Once we had some guests who left a completely unfounded rant on the reviews section of our listing and he removed it after we said we were worried that it might affect our future bookings. It was then taken over and began expanding, swallowing up everything around it (sounds familiar?) The account managers disappeared and when you called with a question or problem, they began to adhere to strict new rules. Their answer is usually 'no, or not possible' now.

You may ask why we are still dealing with them. They are the largest holiday home agency in the Netherlands and are at the moment stepping in where HA is failing for us this year. We really thought that we could soon say goodbye to them, seeing how well HA was working for us last year. This year we are very glad we have the income from them, if not glad that we have to have some of their feral groups around to stay.
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AngloDutch
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Post by AngloDutch »

GillianF wrote:I've watched this thread with growing incredulity - and horror. I'm not familiar with Belvilla or other agencies and how they work ........ and I don't think I want to get involved with any after reading this thread as it confirms my worst suspicions (and more) about agencies.

So, from a position of no knowledge or experience I would just say that I would definitely challenge the agency as to exactly what the security deposit's purpose is, what the 'insurance' covers. I would demand the cost of the gate (knowing I might not get it) and make myself a real nuisance with calls and asking to speak to senior management. I would also make sure they know I am plastering the internet, forums etc. with the story. You don't seem to be alone in your view of Belvilla.

None of the above might help but I think I would feel a bit better!

Thanks, Gillian. Actually, their senior management is unreachable and now resides in an 'ivory tower' somewhere in Amsterdam (the other end of the country to where Belvilla is located in Eindhoven).
Once when we had a massive problem with Pureholidayhomes in the UK (which was at that time part of the same organisation). We found the CEO of @Leisure - the main organisation's - email address on Linkedin and forwarded him an email we had sent to the CEO of Pureholidayhomes after we were being ignored by that company's support staff. The next day our phone didn't stop ringing with senior management calling us from Pureholidayhomes. At the end of the day we received a call from the CEO of @Leisure himself, asking if Pureholidayhomes had called us, and offering his sincere apologies for the appalling service that we had received from them.

But unfortunately, it's all change now and Belvilla is now a massive, faceless monolith that seems to be chomping its way through all the competition over here.

We do do a bit of plastering ourselves here on LMH, don't we! I am always amazed that a short thread on some obscure start-up from India will bring their management directly to the discussion vehemently denying any wrongdoing! :wink:
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