UK In/Out referendum

[Moliere]

I must say I keep hearing verdicts from a range of people, where their intended vote is based on the flimsiest of rationales. Quite literally they're upset because there is a Polish deli further down their street, their friend at the art class has children who can't get a council flat because of "immigrants" (actually not from the EU in that borough), their family have a long tradition of being "true blue" and Cameron is a dangerous left-winger, or because it's all a conspiracy by these big nobs and what do they know anyway?

It's so dispiriting; if I could feel that everyone was voting on the basis of a considered view, whichever way they choose, it would make me feel a heap better. Referendums are sadly the enemy of democracy.

Moliere

[Hells Bells]

I've heard some equally dubious reasons, such as Brussels interfering with our vacuum cleaners. Turned out he was really pleased with his new one, but it still didn't alter the fact he hadn't been consulted about this law being passed.

[kevsboredagain]

Are you saying the British public don't have the right to vote because we can't tell fact from fiction.

It might be wise for people to actually find out the facts for themselves instead of relying on tosh from the politicians who all seem to have alternative agendas. Sadly many of them havev trouble distinguishin propaganda from fact.

https://fullfact.org/europe/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-polit ... m-35603388

Both very interesting links

[Jimbo]

Are you saying the British public don't have the right to vote because we can't tell fact from fiction.

It might be wise for people to actually find out the facts for themselves instead of relying on tosh from the politicians who all seem to have alternative agendas. Sadly many of them havev trouble distinguishin propaganda from fact.

https://fullfact.org/europe/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-polit ... m-35603388

Both very interesting links

Good links indeed Helen that would reward close scrutiny.

But Paul Simon made a wise comment some years ago:
"Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

[Enaid]

I must say I keep hearing verdicts from a range of people, where their intended vote is based on the flimsiest of rationales. Quite literally they're upset because there is a Polish deli further down their street, their friend at the art class has children who can't get a council flat because of "immigrants" (actually not from the EU in that borough), their family have a long tradition of being "true blue" and Cameron is a dangerous left-winger, or because it's all a conspiracy by these big nobs and what do they know anyway?

It's so dispiriting; if I could feel that everyone was voting on the basis of a considered view, whichever way they choose, it would make me feel a heap better. Referendums are sadly the enemy of democracy.

Moliere

That works both ways. I have heard people saying they are voting to remain because they don't want to join the longer queues at the airports. Someone else said they want to remain because it will be more expensive to get wine, etc from France, and another because she "trusts David Cameron".

But I have heard more political discussions amongst my friends and colleagues than I ever heard before a general election, and many are trying hard to sort fact from fiction and look at things in a reasoned way. Some are for leave, and some are for remain, they are all concerned they don't vote the wrong way, and none deserve to be spoken of the way that some on here have.

[Moliere]

But Paul Simon made a wise comment some years ago:
"Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

So the story of this whole wearisome referendum campaign is:

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest

That seems to just about sum it up.

M

[Moliere]

But I have heard more political discussions amongst my friends and colleagues than I ever heard before a general election, and many are trying hard to sort fact from fiction and look at things in a reasoned way. Some are for leave, and some are for remain, they are all concerned they don't vote the wrong way.

That's heartening to hear, Enaid.

Moliere

[Jimbo]

But I have heard more political discussions amongst my friends and colleagues than I ever heard before a general election, and many are trying hard to sort fact from fiction and look at things in a reasoned way.

A while back, I worked in Vietnam. At the village where I was staying, huge loudspeakers had been erected on high poles and government information was broadcast every day at enormous volume from lunchtime to the early hours. When I asked the kindly Vietnamese engineer who was escorting me on the trip, he said that only primitive people who worked in the fields believed the propaganda, everyone else knew that it was a crude attempt to engender fear in the population, so the government could compel uncritical and unwavering support for their policies. Education is the key, he said, once everyone is educated, the government will no longer be able to broadcast such nonsense.

Sadly, it hasn’t proved to be quite so simple. People (like my Vietnamese engineer friend), who have the misfortune to live in totalitarian countries with corrupt and vicious governments, imbibe with their mother’s milk the instinct not to trust anything they are told by those in power. Those of us living in democracies, in contrast, surely have the right to expect higher standards of truthfulness, honesty and honour from our elected representatives that, sadly and increasingly, aren’t being fulfilled.

If this current referendum debacle achieves nothing else, it might alert more people to question more critically the outpourings from our elected leaders. The internet provides many new opportunities to examine contentious subjects and we ignore these at our peril. Hopefully, future generations will learn to do better than base momentous decisions on their and our country’s future on something more concrete than vague concepts like “wanting my country back” or “trusting David Cameron”.

[Ecosse]

If this current referendum debacle achieves nothing else, it might alert more people to question more critically the outpourings from our elected leaders. The internet provides many new opportunities to examine contentious subjects and we ignore these at our peril. Hopefully, future generations will learn to do better than base momentous decisions on their and our country’s future on something more concrete than vague concepts like “wanting my country back” or “trusting David Cameron”.

Interesting you should say that, because that's exactly what has happened in Scotland following the independence referendum. Having been lied to by Westminster and the press during a similarly staged campaign as the current one (including 'stay in the UK to ensure you stay in the EU ), the Scots are far more sceptical now of politicians and the media. Their overall vote to remain is not based on any great loyalty to Nicola Sturgeon, and definitely not a love of David Cameron, but through more extensive researching of the facts.

[greenbarn]

I believe it's been running for some time, but based on the evidence that a very significant majority of MPs across all parties in the House of Commons are in favour of remaining in the EU, there's a petition running to cancel the referendum and place trust in the idea that those who have been democratically elected to best serve the interests of our country in relation to, and in combination with, the rest of the world should be empowered to do just that.

Interesting notion.

[Paul Carmel]

upload images

[GRL]

I was talking to a friend yesterday. A lady in her 60s who has worked hard all her life in very low paid jobs and brought up 3 children (one with learning difficulties) without state help. She is thinking about voting out because she believes Great Britain puts far too much of HER money into the EU and we this will only increase as we allow other countries to join who are in financial difficulties. Immigration was not an issue to her and she is not a racist.

From what I have seen our EU contributions amount to something like 0.6% of our total expenditure and the amount each person pays is less that the price of buying The Sun every day.
https://www.facebook.com/lisa.lock.315/ ... nref=story

Her husband reads The Sun. She has no internet and her only source of information will be The Sun, the ITV news she sometimes watches and her friends.

She admits she doesn't know the effect of voting in or out but she is swaying towards out for financial reasons.

The public is being asked to vote on something that will have long and far reaching effects yet many people have no idea which way to vote as they do not understand either what is happening now or what the future may hold if we do leave. At least if you vote in the wrong political party you get the chance to kick them out at the next election. No second chances if we get this one wrong.

[Casscat]

The whole subject of the upcoming referendum has cast me into a deep depression. Initially I had a misguided optimism that common sense would prevail and a vote to remain would be the outcome, but the more I am exposed to social media and the views being expressed there the more troubled I become. I am more concerned about the vote now than ever. I would like to go to bed tonight and wake up to find that Cameron's rather stupid manifesto promise to hold an in/out referendum in the first place has all been a horrible dream. It seems that people are not letting the facts get in the way of their prejudices.

[Moliere]

Your final phrase struck a chord, Casscat. An old friend of mine who recently went expat and is acutely aware of the negative effects Brexit will have on her, is still voting "Out" because it's consistent with her principles.

What these principles are I can only conjecture.

Mols

[salmoncottage]

Paul, your poster above ^ will soon be tomorrows fish n chip paper, when we'll all get back to moaning about Brussels.
We're not going anywhere in a hurry as we're all just happy in the familiar. Talk and bluster is cheap, but actually putting a cross in a box to back it up is an entirely different thing altogether.