Damage by tenant - insurance company won't pay

Agencies and other headaches, keys and cleaners, running costs and contracts...in short, all the things we spend so much of our time doing behind the scenes.<br>
Kingyclan
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Damage by tenant - insurance company won't pay

Post by Kingyclan »

Help. Advice please!

Our holiday home is adapted for disabled guests with a lift. On monday night our guests (just the two) BOTH entered the lift without a mobile phone. The lift has no way of communicating with the outside world and this is highlighted. The lift broke down. The couple were stuck all night in the lift and during this time they used wheelchair parts to try and break out of the lift. Unfortunately they chose the door first (the most secure part of the lift) before finally kicking in a panel and escaping - (unharmed but dehydrated and tired). From a business perspective this is disastrous. The lift is out of commission, will be very expensive to repair (and may need replacement) and this is likely to take 2 months with either option. I have back to back bookings which will need to be cancelled as the lift is essential to my guests.

I have holiday home insurance but today they have rejected my claim (purely on my description of events, but no visit, no photos) on the grounds that the damage was neither malicious or accidental.

So tomorrow I have the joyous job of trying to sort this out. My insurer is Vasek Insurance and is a holiday home policy.

ANY advice much appreciated.

Regards
Ruth

www.kingsholidaycottages.co.uk
kg1
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Post by kg1 »

Just looked at your pics - it does look expensive.

Would you have any claim against the lift installers/makers?

Are 2 guests supposed to be in the lift at once?

You say there's a notice about no outside communication - does it specify guests having a 'phone with them?

Would they get a signal in the lift anyway?

Insurance Ombudsman might help?

You have my sympahthies on a horrible situation.
Kingyclan
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Post by Kingyclan »

TY.

I don't think there is a claim against the lift manufacturer's. The lift has been serviced regularly and has been in place for 10 years without an incident like this.

Common sense should tell someone that if there are only two people resident BOTH shouldn't get in the lift - but hey ho, this time they did.

There is a sign saying don't get in without your mobile but again this was ignored, and yes, signal is good.

Will add ombudsman to my list of possible avenues. I'm hoping they are 'trying it on' and will back down but who knows.

R
newtimber
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Post by newtimber »

I think that probably your lift should have had an emergency communication system in it as third parties are using the lift and you are responsible for their health and safety. Modern lifts are required to have this.
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NeatandPicky
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Post by NeatandPicky »

Your cottage looks lovely, and obviously no expense has been spared equipping it for your disabled guests. Huge sympathies.

Even if your insurance won't pay out for the lift repair itself, will they at least reimburse you for lost bookings that you'll need to cancel?
petitbois
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Post by petitbois »

bit of a long shot, but as the guests ignored your advice & had no common sense, can you claim against their insurance?????
akwe-xavante
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Post by akwe-xavante »

Both you and your guests have my sympathies on a horrible situation.

Lets not forget what a frightening experience it must of been for the guests trapped in the lift too even though they didn't take any notice of the rules etc.

How long, how many days would they of been trapped if they hadn't of escaped before someone found them dead!?

We ALL know that guests don't take any notice of any rules and guidelines we offer them whilst staying at our properties.

Rules are being ignored every week and as human beings we do forget things too. We become complacent and lazy even though we know we shouldn't or should do something, we do it anyway because nothing could possibly go wrong this time. Could it!?

A very expensive and sole destroying experience I'm sure.

Can I suggest that when the lift is replaced / repaired it is equipped with one or even more ways of people requesting help.

And more importantly it's important that if someone does get trapped and they phone for help then someone does answer the phone immediately and is willing able to talk to them for as long as it takes for them to be rescued.

Even if the lift is capable of automatically making a phone call on fault or error I think it's still important that a trapped person can phone for help too so that they are reassured that help is on its way. A real person somewhere would know that your trapped in a lift.

Trapped in a lift disabled or otherwise even if I could hear an automated computerised voice telling me help is on the way and don't panic, I wouldn't wait long before I would try to escape myself unless I had one to one contact with a real human being on the end of a phone.

When performing risk assessment I always ask myself "What If"

What if a guest forgets there phone whilst using the lift and it breaks down!? An Unacceptable Situation.

I would keep the guests involved very sweet too, could they sue? Could the health and safety executive, the council and others get involved?

Hope the BBC and the local and national papers don't find out what has happened!
Pirou
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Post by Pirou »

I wanted to express my sympathy both to you and your guests. Did the lift break down because there were two people in it? Or can it cope with more than one person?

I'm with Newtimber though in that there probably needs to be a permanent, reliable point of communication in a lift because someone could always get in with their mobile phone and when in difficulties find out that the battery just died. Sod's law knows when to step in.

I hope all works out well for you (as well as it possibly can) and hope the calls to the guests who have booked over the next few months aren't too difficult. A horrible situation for all.
akwe-xavante
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Post by akwe-xavante »

What If:

This happened on the first day of there holiday?

3, 5, 7, 10, 14, 21 nights!

What about diabetics and other conditions etc.

Could an able bodied person escape from the lift? The fact that the guests had a wheelchair gave them some simplistic rudimentary tools to work with to help them escape. An able bodied person would not have the benefit of these.

I think that they and you have been very lucky indeed.
Kingyclan
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Post by Kingyclan »

Thank you all for your replies.

Just to reassure the couple concerned are recovered and have headed back home despite what we can all imagine to be an horrific 12 hours. I have not explored whether we might have a case against the tenants for the damage, that doesn't sit comfortably at all.

The lift will most likely be replaced as the damage is so significant, and replacement will include autodial for assistance. I am not aware of this being a legal requirement as per HSE but it IS now standard included technology, the usual situation being up to 5 numbers on a loop.

Cancelled customers are disappointed but the special needs community are a hardy and pragmatic lot and are accepting full refunds and/or rebooking for 2018.

I remain utterly gutted that my business is now closed for a significant part of the season and the financial losses will be huge. Discussions with brokers and insurance are ongoing and not looking promising at all, though there is talk of an ex gratia payment, though, this is highly unlikely to cover anything like the expenses we now face. I am reeling at the corporate wriggling and small print get out of jail free cards that are being played but I am coming to the conclusion that I either sort out my business or spend months in legal battles pitted against some very big players.

Down but not out!
AndrewH
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Post by AndrewH »

You have my sympathies, Ruth. It is a very difficult situation for you for all the reasons mentioned here.

Having myself been trapped in a lift in a multi-story building somewhere between the 14th. and 15th. floors, I know something of the feeling from your guests' point of view as well. There was a communications phone and the building's maintenance staff operated 24/7, so we, in the lift, were released quite quickly.

Hindsight is so easy, but I think some permanently installed means of communication for help from the outside world is absolutely essential in any lift. This raises the question whom do you (the trapped person) communicate with? And that side of it needs to be dealt with as well. There are permanently manned call centres which react to burglaries and break-ins, when an alarm is triggered in a building. Perhaps there are call centres of a similar nature, for handling emergencies such as this.
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Cymraes
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Post by Cymraes »

What a horrible situation for everyone and yes if they hadn't broken out they could have been in there for days.

I too have been trapped in a lift and was also fortunate to have been released very quickly. I would not wish that 30 minutes on anyone. I was terrified and if I'd been in your guests position I'd have tried to break out too without any consideration of the damage.

In your pictures I see the lift was equipped with a non operational phone - surely it wouldn't be hard to have it connected?
akwe-xavante
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Post by akwe-xavante »

Good to know that all's well and that your new lift will have additional safety features.

I think that you have been very lucky, you could of been responsible for the death of your guests.

Does something need to be "A legal Requirement" a "mandatory prerequisite" or some such phrase before we then exercise common sense and do stuff for the benefit of our guests safety?

Forgive me, but I think your old lift was a death trap just waiting to happen.

You can't rely on guests to remember to take a mobile phone into the lift, you rely on people using it one person at a time, if there is room for two then two people will use it. Even if they have a mobile phone you cannot guarantee that all mobile phone networks work or will be available 24/7. Your assuming that all guests have a mobile phone and your assuming that it's well charged and the battery is in good condition and is able to hold a full charge for a significant amount of time. Your also assuming that everybody knows how to use there mobile phone too, surprisingly not everybody does!

Thinking about the old lift even if it's not a legal requirement to have a phone inside it etc etc the potential risk of the death of a guest was far to great a risk for you to have taken, just my opinion. The risks are far greater than a lift in a public building or block of offices or flats where there are other people present all day in the same building.

I couldn't of done it even if the lift was legal.

Safety isn't something we should implement as a minimum at the lowest possible cost and only when it's a legal requirement to do so.

Given a new lift with an autodialing safety feature, how long should a trapped guest wait before they become aware that somebody is aware of the situation and somebody is on the way to help? How long would you wait before you would try to escape by whatever means? I wouldn't trust an automated safety system for long personally.

Is it possible to take out an insurance policy specifically to indemnify you of all possible future costs arising from a similar thing happening again. You can purchase indemnity policies with a one off lifetime payment for some things, I have.
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Mouse
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Post by Mouse »

I have very sympathy with your situation. ...it must have been a dreadful shock to hear about it.
It sounds like it's the sort of incident that falls between the cracks; the damage was intentional and non malicous as they needed to breakout of the dreadful situation they found themselves in. A situation of their making through not heeding instructions. It is probably hard hearted of me but I feel they do carry some of the responsibility. Thank god it didn't end in tragedy.

However, looking at ways to ease the situation. ...is it possible for you to sell the property to non-special needs until the lift situation is fixed? Able bodied people won't need it, so it could bring you some income in. Deal is a lovely location so I'm sure you would get interest.

Wishing you strength to get through this.

Mouse
x
zebedee
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Post by zebedee »

Will your insurance policy pay for any loss of income?
I know the insurers refused to pay for the repair itself, but may
be worth another look at the policy to see what else could be
covered.

So very sorry for you!
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