Telephone & Wifi Limiting Liability

Agencies and other headaches, keys and cleaners, running costs and contracts...in short, all the things we spend so much of our time doing behind the scenes.<br>
HebrideanRock
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Telephone & Wifi Limiting Liability

Post by HebrideanRock »

Hi,

So, after 'Hello' the first guest question is 'What's your wifi code ?'

We're setting up another property and contracting for broadband/wifi, and were seeking to bar outgoing calls on the phone-line (just in case someone brings a plug-in phone) to discover BT want £4.50/mth to stop someone using a phone line. Eh, no thank you BT, I'll choose risk management as cheaper !

We're looking at adding a clause to our T&C's to 'limit our liability' as regards someone plugging in a phone to our landline or/and using broadband inappropriately i.e. no phone calls & no using our system to view or download illegal/inappropriate material, no pop-up sex-lines/brothel (thx AirBnB for publicising this as a Guest opportunity), etc.

a) has anyone already drafted this type of thing;

b) we thought we'd make the contractee/renter liable for all parties use (mis-use);

and

c) Has anyone had any problems in B&B or SC in this area?

We're also going to change our B&B T&C's as we realised that it is our IP address that is going to be 'out there' !

Your thoughts appreciated

Thank you ---- Hebridean Rock
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

What is inappropriate to you is not the same for another person.
How can you feel you can stop someone connecting to a website to witch you object too? You cannot unless someone has a bit of software which stops connection to certain IP addresses. Have you searched for such a beast?
If you keep a record of the usage that will not stop the usage at the time and it will come across as more big brother than the above suggestion.
In fact is anything suggested in this post actually legal in the UK? If so just let it ride.
Phone calls can be made by connecting any "smart phone" to your Wi-Fi. Or the use of Skype or Whatsapp.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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greenbarn
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Post by greenbarn »

casasantoestevo wrote:What is inappropriate to you is not the same for another person.
How can you feel you can stop someone connecting to a website to witch you object too? You cannot unless someone has a bit of software which stops connection to certain IP addresses. Have you searched for such a beast?
If you keep a record of the usage that will not stop the usage at the time and it will come across as more big brother than the above suggestion.
In fact is anything suggested in this post actually legal in the UK? If so just let it ride.
Phone calls can be made by connecting any "smart phone" to your Wi-Fi. Or the use of Skype or Whatsapp.
Has there been a change in UK law regarding the liabilities of someone providing internet access and that access being used to download illegal or pirated material?
Unless that is the case I don’t think HebrideanRock can be accused of wanting to dictate what is or is not inappropriate for anyone; rather it’s a case of trying to keep on the right side of the law and avoid having the internet access provided for guests closed down.
It’s an issue we’ve faced in the UK for some years; presumably it’s not an issue in every country, I don’t have any relevant knowledge of the situation outside the UK.
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greenbarn
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Post by greenbarn »

HebrideanRock - I’m sure others will be along with useful information on blocking wifi access, but I don’t think you can guarantee to be able to do it. Certainly many routers allow you to block access to certain sites, and types of content, but I don’t believe it’s foolproof (this is where other comments are needed!)

Definitely add a condition of use stating that the internet access you provide must not be used for illegal purposes - I think most of us (in the UK at least) say something like that, but beyond that a determined and IT savvy guest will find a way if they want to. Stating that your system monitors activity in case you’re ever required to produce it in evidence might help (even if you don’t/can’t do it).

As for phone use, I’d make the landline point inaccessible (ditto the router - lock it away somewhere beyond fingerpoking reach) and guests can use their mobile, and as casasantoestevo says, they can use a smartphone on the wifi connection, which is fine if you have an unlimited service.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

thanks for the explanation, but the question is how to hotels, cafes, other public WIFI areas get to restrict you? Another example is trains with WIFI I believe. The only restriction is a tick box?
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
ianh100
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Location: Sherborne Dorset

Post by ianh100 »

Its a tricky one. We have some words in out T&C that says we keep a record of when guests stay and that they should only use the internet for legal use. we advise that we will provide the guests details to any authorities that request them.
HebrideanRock
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Post by HebrideanRock »

Ok, ok ... I’m not talking about restricting WiFi access or access to specific websites ... I may be a bit paranoid though.

The real question is if Guest X uses our broadband service for dodgy purposes ... am I liable !?

An accessible landline socket is a separate issue and easily solved. Similarly, remote access to a WiFi router (in the loft) can be easily reset.

My Q was really about T&C’s and limiting MY liability and other guests on MY network !

I don’t really care what the Guest accesses ... I just don’t want to be raided by the Police at 5am ! &#128512;
akwe-xavante
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Location: East Yorkshire

Post by akwe-xavante »

Buy a proffessional router such as a Draytek router, theres nothing you can't do with a little knowledge and guidence with these routers.

You block ip and domain name addresses.
You can block P2P networks.
You can restrict / block OS update services
You can block iCloud services
You can assign redirects
You can throttle misuse / overuse
You can configure the router to record ALL online activity to a USB stick
You can block Kodi Coded IPTV devices and stop them downloading illegal copyrighted material.

However i can agree that that just because you wouldn't visit this that and the other website or service doesn't nessesarily mean you can block them.

The trick is to control misuse and abuse and block illegal use.

NOT ALL porn is illegal even if you strongly disagree with it yourself.

Having a router that records ALL internet activity to a USB stick along with the date and time and detailed data about each and every device conected is an excellent way to protect yourself if in future your ISP and or the police visit you. You know the name and address of the guests on a given date. Your router will have recorded which device did whatever your being accused of second by second. You have everything your ISP and the police need to visit the guests at there own home and with the data recorded by your router they can find the specific device and it's owner. Job Done.

You do not need any special third party software, all you need is a decent router..........Draytek has it all covered.

The only downside is the price and learning how to configure it.

What price do you put on protecting yourself against a potential criminal offence that you may end up with?

Draytek support are very good and fast at replying to support.

Are you liable for the illegal use of the internet? YES YOU ARE, well the account holder is even if you have a disclaimer in your T&C's your ISP and the Police don't want to know. The account holder is responsible. It's the account holders responsibility to manage, control and find who is responsible for the criminality. You can't prove who is responsible then your liable.

Your ISP records all activity on your line using your WAN IP address as a single reference along with the date and time. You can have hundreds of devices accessing the net using the same WAN IP address but your ISP cannot seperate out each individual device. Your router can inwardly record each device seperatly pinpointing wich device did what and when. It will even tell you what that device is, is it an iPhone6 or 8 or an Assus laptop or an IPTV device etc etc.

If a guest is downloading child porn you are responsible and you (The Account Holder) will be prosecuted unless you can say.....

Mr and Mrs Smith were guests on the date and the device used on that date at that time was an Assus Laptop with the IP address of 192.168.1.23 with the MAC Address of 00:GT:0K:34:G4:D3:76. Got em!!!!! The police will visit the guests address and find the device.......Sorted.
akwe-xavante
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:19 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Post by akwe-xavante »

Here is an actual example of a Draytek's log file

<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49993 -> 82.199.68.73:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49994 -> 82.199.68.73:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49995 -> 82.199.68.73:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49996 -> 82.199.68.73:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49998 -> 34.196.151.37:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49997 -> 34.196.151.37:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User: 34.196.151.37:80 -> 192.168.1.10:49717 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User: 74.117.199.102:443 -> 192.168.1.10:49975 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49999 -> 8.41.222.241:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50000 -> 8.41.222.241:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:54 Vigor: Local User: 23.43.75.27:80 -> 192.168.1.10:49882 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:55 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50001 -> 204.154.111.135:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:55 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50002 -> 204.154.111.135:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:55 Vigor: Local User: 23.43.75.27:80 -> 192.168.1.10:49895 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:55 Vigor: Local User: 23.43.75.27:80 -> 192.168.1.10:49890 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:56 Vigor: Local User: 204.154.111.135:443 -> 192.168.1.10:50002 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:06:56 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50003 -> 204.154.111.104:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:56 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50004 -> 204.154.111.104:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:56 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:49907 -> 185.31.128.208:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:06:58 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50005 -> 64.94.116.170:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:00 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50006 -> 216.58.213.102:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:00 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50007 -> 216.58.213.102:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50008 -> 23.56.185.97:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50009 -> 176.34.97.247:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50010 -> 176.34.97.247:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50011 -> 23.56.185.97:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50012 -> 23.56.185.97:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User: 74.117.199.102:443 -> 192.168.1.10:49976 (TCP) close connection
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50013 -> 204.154.111.135:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:01 Vigor: Local User (MAC=00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED): 192.168.1.10:50014 -> 204.154.111.135:443 (TCP)
<150>Nov 8 08:07:02 Vigor: Local User: 204.154.111.135:443 -> 192.168.1.10:50014 (TCP) close connection

00-1C-BF-8E-22-ED is an Intel Laptop with the IP address of 192.168.1.10 accessing 185.31.128.208:443 (TCP). Port 443 is a secure connection, 185.31.128.208 is the IP address of the website / service being accessed


inetnum: 185.31.128.0 - 185.31.128.255
netname: ROCKETFUEL-FRA
descr: Rocket Fuel Inc. Frankfurt
geoloc: 50.097427 8.644453
country: DE
created: 2015-07-15T17:46:01Z
last-modified: 2015-07-15T18:31:39Z
source: RIPE

org-name: Rocket Fuel Inc.
org-type: LIR
address: 2000 Seaport Blvd.
Fourth Floor
address: Redwood City
address: 94063
address: UNITED STATES
Kilm
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Post by Kilm »

I activate filters and children settings if s booking has children. Otherwise they can fill their boots with as much porn as they like.

In terms of liability, the key point here is criminality. If for example a guest decides they'll watch child porn on your internet connection, then should the authorities come knocking, you would simply provide them, after the relevant DPA request, the details of the guest at the time and they would pursue them. Same for pirating if it's tracked back to an IP associate with your router.

In terms of landline calls, maybe phrase it differently. Ask BT to put a STOP on all outgoing phonecalls. It should be free. I'm with Talk talk who are effectively resellers of BT and it costs me nothing. Pretty sure they wouldn't absorb that cost!

Failing that, with your micro-filter, just shove some epoxy in o the telephony socket and glue the filter male into the female wall socket. Should you ever need to replace them, it's cost you less than £5 for a new faceplate and ethernet cable & filter.
akwe-xavante
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Post by akwe-xavante »

Not quite as straight forward or as simplistic as Kilm says....
Kilm is correct in an ideal world but consider these additional issues....
Do you change the WiFi password religiously every changeover so the WiFi password is always unique to the guests the week the criminality took place? A WiFi password that NOBODY else knows or has access to in anyway whatsoever. What’s to stop the guests telling the gardener or the poolman or the neighbour what the password is that week when asked?
Does anybody else have access to the password at all, the cleaner, the gardener, the neighbours, the pool man and their employees, friends and family?
If the WiFi password is always the same week after week from year to year then any previous guests and employees and their family and friends still have internet access via your router at any time.
So by saying that Mr & Mrs Smith were guests at your cottage on the date and at the time the criminality took place could be criminalising the wrong person(s)........ It could of been the poolman, the gardener, the cleaner or any one of their family, a neighbour or an employee or even guests that stayed at your cottage 18 months ago that were staying at a property nearby at the date and time.
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

Questions:

Has any person in the UK been prosecuted by this Law?
What happens when smart folks use IP changers?
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
akwe-xavante
Posts: 306
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Location: East Yorkshire

Post by akwe-xavante »

Has any person in the UK been prosecuted by this Law?

Yes, i know of one person that has been prosecuted for illegally downloading copyrighted film and i know of three where prosecution failed. I have two customers that have been jailed for downloading child porn and one who was jailed for online terrorism/ISIS related offences. One who is serving a suspended three year sentence for online stalking . Over the last two years I’ve witnessed Police raid two addresses whilst I was repairing customer computers at their home address for online crimes. One has been jailed for cloning cards and using stolen card details online and the other is still ongoing for selling fake goods online. A few years ago I had a customer who couldn’t get broadband, whenever he tried to sign up with an ISP he failed!!!!! He had been banned, nobody would take him on because he’d been hacking company servers in the past.

What happens when smart folks use IP changers?

A consumer can’t change a WAN IP address (Well technically incorrect, reboot the router and most people get a new WAN IP address. But this won’t help a criminal) but you can use VPN software to sort of hide but this only delays the process of catching criminals. This gives the authorities another hoop to jump through that’s all. You can use proxy servers to change / hide your WAN IP address but again it only gives the authorities another hoop to jump through that’s all delaying the process of finding criminals.

What happens when smart folks use MAC address changers?

You can change the MAC address of some devices but not all BUT you cannot change the whole MAC address so doing so I a waste of time.

24yrs experience suggests that the Police and ISP’s only get interested in online crimes if a crime persists for an amount of time then they do something about it. So the likely hood of someone having a FHL getting prosecuted for illegal online activities is very small indeed as guests only stay for a relatively short period of time and not long enough to attract the attention of the ISP or the police.
Now I know that some of you have received letters from your ISP’s warning you about the illegal downloading of copyrighted film by your own admission in past posts. My customer above that served a two year sentence for downloading copyrighted film received two warning letters over a period of six months before being raided by the police. SO OK he was also selling pirated DVD movies online and in the local pub too which is what they locked him up for but in the first place not knowing this it took nine months from the first letter to getting raided.

So theoretically you could have someone downloading copyrighted film over Christmas (Get a letter) and again at Easter (Get a Letter) and again over the summer and get raided by the police in September as the season starts to wind down!!!!!
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

When I asked about prosecutions I should have made that question clearer. I was asking about a vacation let owner who been prosecuted. Links would be nice!

The other events you kindly pointed out would happen over a period of time. And despite your hearsay words I can see the newspapers are full of that sort prosecutions on persons access, over a long period illegal material.

All of the following links relate to the UK:
Accessing porn is not illegal and if introduced could be unenforceable.
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/porn-blo ... cation-law
If you accesses file sharing P2P sites a letter will be sent. It would seem on further action will be taken.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 31276.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2800532/s ... rogrammes/

VPNs (hiding your IP) will give the guest privacy from you the accommodation owner and your internet provider.
http://vpnexpress.net/does-vpn-stop-isp ... downloads/
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
akwe-xavante
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:19 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Post by akwe-xavante »

Sorry my experience is between me and my customers directly and I cannot disclose further details or links to such information whether such info exists in the public domain or not.

I wouldn't want someone to do that to me and I'd get very very upset indeed even to the point that I would take legal action too even if the info is/was publically available.

It could even damage my businesses reputation, something I'm not prepared to allow to happen no matter how unlikely it would be, no way, sorry. No can do.

Have no experience directly with FHL's being charged or prosecuted but I do have experience where a campsite has been in trouble but charges were dropped, oh and one guest house, charges were dropped.

VPNs (hiding your IP) will give the guest privacy from you the accommodation owner and your internet provider.

Yes but you know a VPN is being used and who the VPN provider is. The Police just have another hoop to jump through to get the info they need from the VPN provider. It just delays the process a little that's all.

Lets be clear, the likely hood of a FHL owner getting into trouble with the law is very unlikely indeed but not impossible though. BUT if you do get into trouble the account holder is in trouble unless they can prove that someone else is responsible by providing evidence of such. Ignorance is no defence.

As long as FHL owners are aware and have given it some thought and understand that no matter how unlikely it is that they could be in trouble, it could happen.
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