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Guests whose unannounced friends join them
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Morristhedog



Joined: 03 Jun 2015
Posts: 114
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Guests whose unannounced friends join them Reply with quote

What is supposed to happen, and how do you handle it, when the guest has booked for two adults and four children, but then on day two their mate arrived to join them for a freebie?

I am managing a place for a friend, and this is happening here tonight.

At my own place someone has booked for themselves, and later booked in another party for B&B locally. It seems they are all spending all day at mine. Use of my facilities for which I suppose I bear the costs?

Not sure how to handle either of these cases.

Do we grin and bear it?

What would you do?
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zebedee



Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 1039
Location: yorkshire dales

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gosh, you are having a difficult time!
Re your friends place - I think it depends upon whether or not the additional guest takes them over the number that the accommodation has beds for.
My place only sleeps 4, but I donít offer a discount for under occupancy and all beds are made up as I beleive my guests have booked the use of the whole cottage.

I do accept that with a larger property owners may make a reduction for under occupancy and it may not look bad if beds are not made up.
I do put on paperwork though, that although there is no charge for anyone taking up the remaining beds, I need to know for insurance purposes. Insurance may be the strongest leverage you have in your argument.

Perhaps you also say to the lead guest that you will need to mention to your friend about their additional guest.

Re your property. I would work out a rough idea of the additional costs you think you will incur before you say anything - but I would get in quick and say something as it is a bit of a liberty.

Is there anything in the terms and conditions of either place that will help you? Anything in your insurance policy about the numbers of guests?
Could there be??
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AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1436
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tricky situations, Morristhedog, and I would be seething, yet knowing there was not too much I could do about either of the cases.

Unless one charges per person (I doubt that many do) or gives a discount for under-occupancy, the renter might consider that he has booked the accommodation in its entirety and can invite a mate to stay if he so chooses.

Similarly, I don't think that a renter would see anything wrong in inviting friends to visit, regardless of how long they stayed during the day, and how often.

Perhaps the best answer for dealing with this is to include some limitations in one's terms and conditions. This subject has been touched on previously on LMH and in consequence of that I added this clause, for our one-bedroom villa:

"The maximum capacity for occupation of the Property is for two adults, but in special circumstances the Owners may waive this rule, if requested. Gatherings of any kind, where the total number of persons present at the Property at any time exceeds eight, are not permitted."
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JulieR



Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 47
Location: Creuse Limousin France

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The maximum number of people to reside in the Property must not exceed the advertised capacity. The owner has the right to cancel the hiring if the number of persons arriving at the property exceeds those notified and agreed on the booking form"

This is on my t&cs but I know for certain it has not been adhered to 100%. It is also in french on the French t&cs as these groups are the ones that try and sneak in as many as possible but I have not yet inforced it and just hope for the best. So far so good 🤞
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Morristhedog



Joined: 03 Jun 2015
Posts: 114
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for your prompt replies. The gite has occupation limits in the t&c's and has six people in accommodation for six people.
I delivered the information to them as they sat in the garden at night and suggested the neighbouring property could accommodate their friend. I pointed out the insurance issues.

Later they phoned the owner, and lied that I had been told this new person would be staying. The owner settled with them new terms of 40 euros extra for the extra guest if they wrote to agree to shoulder the liability. The guest is leaving today.
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SW31



Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 79
Location: Haute Garonne, France

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get annoyed if they book as two and then ask friends at different times to join them. We had several situations where we didnít know who was on our property. We have a max of four people. If two book and then ask me beforehand they would like couple X to join them Iím fairly relaxed.
What I donít like is the day they arrive to be asked if couple X is ok to stay, they stay and then go and then couple Y arrives with no notice or introduction and they go out and leave couple Y car on the premises. Last year it got a bit stupid and I was glad we live on site to limit the abuse. Some guests were very, very shocked to learn we live on site, despite making it clear in the info, so it was clear what they were intending. This is more a French thing.

For 2018 i now have a new clause that I will not accept more people than made at the time of booking and if I do agree itís 100Ä per person per night. Itís early to see how this will work.
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AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1436
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SW31 wrote:
For 2018 i now have a new clause that I will not accept more people than made at the time of booking and if I do agree itís 100Ä per person per night. Itís early to see how this will work.

That should do it! Very Happy
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amandajane



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 198
Location: South hams, devon

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a clause on my booking form which says that occupation of the cottage and use of its facilities is limited to those named on the booking form.

Of course I wouldn't insist on it if the guest had a guest, but it's there if it were ever needed.
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Anno



Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I briefly add a guest's view (I am a "user" of holiday homes not an owner).
I've probably said this before but frankly when I book a holiday home I wouldn't think twice about having friends round for the day if they were in the area and I would be very miffed if the owner got shirty about it. And if the house capacity was greater than our party number I wouldn't dream of asking "permission" for someone to stay over. In my mind it's our home for the week or whatever so we can invite people round.
If the concern is extra wear and tear, isn't that variable anyway over a season, between guests who spend all their time at the property and guests who are out all day and only really sleep there?
Of course I very well understand the concern when guests have been dishonest about numbers staying and get an unwarranted discount, or if people are actually abusing or damaging the property - yes, of course that's unacceptable.
I suppose I'm trying to say: don't forget we aren't all out to cheat you! Smile (Although reading these forums has opened my eyes to what some people will try Shocked )
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Dusty



Joined: 19 Dec 2012
Posts: 351
Location: St Cernin de Labarde, Dordogne

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue with additional guests not included in the original booking is three fold.
There is the insurance issue as already mentioned but there is also a legal requirement to know who is staying in your property. In addition there are tax implications. As owners we are liable to pay tax for each guest that stays in the property, if we don't know they are there we can't pay the tax
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Frenchlady



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 179
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In these situations I always think what about if there is a fire. We look after gites and one party had brought a baby with them that was not on the booking form and they had not told the owner. We only found out when we had to go to the house for a call-out. I wondered then that, God forbid there had been a fire, we would have told the emergency services to look for 3 adults and a small child, but would not have mentioned that there was a baby in there too.
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amandajane



Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 198
Location: South hams, devon

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anno,
Much as I'm sure we all appreciate your input from a guests point of view I am going to be rather pedantic here.

It's not "your home" for the week. The fundamental difference is that in your home, you are responsible for putting right anything that your guests may inadvertently damage/ soil. If you're staying in "my home" I end up with the bill.
And whilst I know that sometimes guests like to invite someone over for supper and that's not an issue - what we are talking about is when it tips over into abusing our holiday rental. A typical example would be the friends who are camping just down the road who effectively move in all but for the sleeping.
If a couple book a cottage which sleeps 4 and wish to use the additional bedroom and associated facilities, AND, they havn't had an under occupancy discount that's fine- just add the extras on to the booking form.

I had a situation just recently where two sisters booked two separate but consecutive weeks, so one family vacated on Saturday morning and the next arrived on Saturday evening. Sister one emailed to say could she return on the Saturday evening to bath the children and put them in their pj's before driving home. Ok by me, as long as your sister agrees to you being there as her guest. Of course it was fine, but it wouldn't have been if family number one had decided to stay for a second week and bunk down on the living room floor.

So, please don't compare it to your own home. It's not! You're not paying the insurance, the gas, electricity etc etc......
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COYS



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 794
Location: Greek Islands

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anno wrote:
May I briefly add a guest's view (I am a "user" of holiday homes not an owner).
I've probably said this before but frankly when I book a holiday home I wouldn't think twice about having friends round for the day if they were in the area and I would be very miffed if the owner got shirty about it. And if the house capacity was greater than our party number I wouldn't dream of asking "permission" for someone to stay over. In my mind it's our home for the week or whatever so we can invite people round.
If the concern is extra wear and tear, isn't that variable anyway over a season, between guests who spend all their time at the property and guests who are out all day and only really sleep there?
Of course I very well understand the concern when guests have been dishonest about numbers staying and get an unwarranted discount, or if people are actually abusing or damaging the property - yes, of course that's unacceptable.
I suppose I'm trying to say: don't forget we aren't all out to cheat you! Smile (Although reading these forums has opened my eyes to what some people will try Shocked )


I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more. There are capacity limits & regulations for a reason, not least those mentioned above. Where for example our own T&C's state that the property & facilities are only for the use of registered guests, of which there are a maximum number, then only those that have paid & are registered to stay should be using the house, facilities & utilities. You are not renting a venue for ad-hoc social gatherings, that is not covered by the insurers or licensing authorities.
If I were to have my licence suspended or incur a fine of up to 10,000eu for over occupation, unregistered guests, noise nuisance etc. would you be willing to pay it even though your own actions in disregarding our booking terms will have caused it? Or worse, if there was a serious accident/injury caused to persons not insured to be here? I'd guess not.
I'm afraid I would be getting very 'shirty' indeed were I put at risk of this happening through ignorance of our booking terms.
I can't speak for other countries/areas but we fought long & hard here to modernize licensing laws for private property & blasť disregard of the terms under whhich you booked & agreed is for me unacceptable.
It's not simply about 'being cheated' it's about trying to operate within the rules/laws of the locality & as you would have been made well aware of any such conditions in advance of booking, there are no excuses for choosing to ignore them.
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kg1



Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 2347

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anno wrote:
May I briefly add a guest's view (I am a "user" of holiday homes not an owner).
I've probably said this before but frankly when I book a holiday home I wouldn't think twice about having friends round for the day if they were in the area and I would be very miffed if the owner got shirty about it. And if the house capacity was greater than our party number I wouldn't dream of asking "permission" for someone to stay over. In my mind it's our home for the week or whatever so we can invite people round.
If the concern is extra wear and tear, isn't that variable anyway over a season, between guests who spend all their time at the property and guests who are out all day and only really sleep there?
Of course I very well understand the concern when guests have been dishonest about numbers staying and get an unwarranted discount, or if people are actually abusing or damaging the property - yes, of course that's unacceptable.
I suppose I'm trying to say: don't forget we aren't all out to cheat you! Smile (Although reading these forums has opened my eyes to what some people will try Shocked )


Paolo -Are Non Owners now allowed on the forum - if so I am leaving.
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greenbarn



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 6084
Location: The Westmorland Dales, Cumbria

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anno wrote:
In my mind it's our home for the week or whatever so we can invite people round.


Ah, the ignorance and self-entitlement of some guests encapsulated in a single sentence - every rental ownerís nightmare.

No, itís not ďyour homeĒ to do with whatever you like. In the UK, you are not a tenant with the rights associated with that legal status, you have bought the right to occupy for a holiday let within the agreed terms, no more. That does not include sub-letting in any form, or exceeding any occupancy restrictions, or inviting people other than those made known to the owner to be at the property.
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