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Guests whose unannounced friends join them
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Managing your guests
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newtimber



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 1700
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gh wrote:

The latest event was the theft off our brand new Dyson AM07 fan that we had taken over with us in the car.


You couldn't make it up, thankfully we take a damage deposit so it covered the fans replacement, as they were not going to pay.



I would be quite careful of saying that your guests stole your fan on a public forum. It is of course perfectly possible for them not to have noticed a fan if they had never used it. People on holiday tend not to notice things. Unless you yourself met them as they were packing up, someone else could have theoretically have stolen it after they left. They then could think you are completely awful and had taken their deposit but it wasn't worth the hassle of taking you to court to get it back again. Not saying this did happen, but if there is a slightest chance ...

I'm also not sure a damage deposit can be used to cover theft as by definition it is to cover damage. And if you've taken money from them for it, if they did take it, isn't it now legally their property and not stolen?
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COYS



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 794
Location: Greek Islands

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not according to our local insurers requirements (translated from the original Greek schedule)
The Security Deposit ......
“will be used to recover the partial or full cost of property, fixtures & fittings where damaged, spoiled or missing from departure inventory”
It waffles on with a lot more about wilful neglect & misuse of services but in summary can & should be used to cover the cost of ‘theft' where proven.

“Definition: 1. (the act of) dishonestly taking something that belongs to someone else and keeping it.” (Cambridge Dictionary)

An awkward subject for sure & would in all honesty be difficult to ‘prove’ if (as newtimber illustrates) everyone applied every possible unlikely scenario to every single event or issue. We've all had odd bits go missing, thrown away, misplaced or broken (dvd's, games, cd's anyone?) & rarely levy a charge - most times it's just not worth the hassle. But it is difficult to misplace an obvious item such as the fan or duvet as mentioned previously. In such cases I'd think you'd be more than justified in charging for the cost of replacement if or when you are certain your arrival & departure inventories are correct.
Integrity is the key, but the bottom line is that if a visitor has genuinely stolen something, it's highly unlikely they'd hold their hands up to it.

For what it's worth Anno, I personally see no problem with non owners participating in discussions & your reference to a 'perception gap' is the perfect example of why it holds value to have a range of opinions. Open debate is often far more productive than mutual agreement & far less boring!
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newtimber



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 1700
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COYS wrote:
Not according to our local insurers requirements (translated from the original Greek schedule)
The Security Deposit ......


It was referred to as a "damage deposit". If you look at Trip Advisor for example, they say

Quote:
What if the guest and I can’t reach an agreement on a damage deposit claim?

If you can’t reach an agreement with the guest on a damage deposit claim, try the following:

Send them evidence of the damage (if you haven’t done so already)

Send a copy of any receipts you’ve obtained (if you have replaced the damaged items already)

If you try the above and neither works, contact us for further advice. Make sure you send us any supporting evidence you’ve collected so we can help you resolve your claim as quickly as possible.



What we will request from you

To support your claim, we will request photographic evidence of the damage, in the form of photos or videos, as well as invoices to give us an indication of the financial impact of the damage.


This will clearly be very difficult for the fan.
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gh



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Poitou Charente/Moraira/UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newtimber wrote:


I would be quite careful of saying that your guests stole your fan on a public forum. It is of course perfectly possible for them not to have noticed a fan if they had never used it. People on holiday tend not to notice things.


newtimber, I did say we personally done the showround in my earlier post. I pointed out on our showround that they were the first to use the new fan.
Over the years there have been a few things missing after a guests holiday, wall clock bedside lamp small folding table little things like that we let slide.
However a £300+ 3 foot tall fan you walk past in the dining room to get to the bedrooms, no never going to let that slide.

"But it is difficult to misplace an obvious item such as the fan or duvet as mentioned previously. In such cases I'd think you'd be more than justified in charging for the cost of replacement if or when you are certain your arrival & departure inventories are correct."

Totally agree with you Coys, our managers have been with us many years and noticed it missing straight away when the quests were leaving. They mentioned the missing fan to them, they denied seeing it.
Rather than cause a fuss and they get involved in any way, explained they would inform the owners.

The minute they stole the fan, it was theirs by theft. We therefore deducted its cost from their deposit.
Interestingly no further correspondence from them at all.

Edit-
My error, we word the deposit as a 'security deposit' on our T&C's

4) A security deposit of €/£200.00 for every week or part week of the rental period is required in case of, for example, damage or loss to the Property or its contents. However, the sum reserved by this clause shall not limit the Client's liability to the Owner. The Owner will account to the client for the security deposit and refund the balance due within 1 week after the end of the rental period less any chargeable expenses arising during the rental period (e.g. breakages, damages or missing items)
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AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1435
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gh wrote:
… 4) A security deposit of €/£200.00 for every week or part week of the rental period is required in case of, for example, damage or loss to the Property or its contents. However, the sum reserved by this clause shall not limit the Client's liability to the Owner. The Owner will account to the client for the security deposit and refund the balance due within 1 week after the end of the rental period less any chargeable expenses arising during the rental period (e.g. breakages, damages or missing items)

A very well worded clause IMO. I have made a note!
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AndrewH



Joined: 12 Sep 2013
Posts: 1435
Location: Kefalonia, Greece

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gh wrote:
… 4) A security deposit of €/£200.00 for every week or part week of the rental period is required in case of, for example, damage or loss to the Property or its contents. However, the sum reserved by this clause shall not limit the Client's liability to the Owner. The Owner will account to the client for the security deposit and refund the balance due within 1 week after the end of the rental period less any chargeable expenses arising during the rental period (e.g. breakages, damages or missing items)

A very well worded clause IMO. I have made a note!
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gh



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Poitou Charente/Moraira/UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Andrew.

First time we have ever had to enforce it; in the 13 years we have rented out our holiday home.

We have been very fortunate and were quite shocked at the brass neck of these set of guests.
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Tournesol



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 75
Location: Charente

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a chambres d'hotes wwe don't charge a damage deposit.
Last week we had guests for one night and only found after they had departed that someone had wet the bed - luckily a bunk bed, not the superking bed, and it had two mattress covers. i would have appreciated being informed (accidents happen) rather than them bundling up the duvet on top of the wet patch so it had time to soak right through. Grrr!
My particular bugbear is that guests obviously sit on the bed to use the dressing table/mirror rather than the provided stool, meaning the end of the mattress is getting wear that it shouldn't.
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Mouse



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 7249
Location: Balearics

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This year (our 14th) we decided to do away with damage deposits explaining to guests that as we're all adults we would expect any damage to be acknowledged.
So far I have had 2 instances where they have out and out denied damage and refused to pay.

Guests aren't what they used to be.

Mousie
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GillianF



Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 802
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Mouse - back to taking damages deposits next year? Wink
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Ecosse



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 802
Location: Saint Gervais les Bains, France

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse wrote:

So far I have had 2 instances where they have out and out denied damage and refused to pay.

Guests aren't what they used to be.

Mousie
x


Ye-es... not damage (fortunately, but it very nearly could have been if they'd damaged the evacuation pipe in process) but I chased a couple out of a room so I could clean it on Monday. It was 11am, check out is 10.30am btw so already they weren't my fave guests. I walk into the bathroom and the shower cubicle has been shifted to the middle of the room... about 50cm. 'What happened here?' I say to the guests who are packing their suitcases. 'Nothing, we did nothing, it was like that when we got here... your cleaner must have...' he says. 'I am the cleaner' I cut in, 'and it wasn't like that yesterday.' Only then did they admit they'd moved it out to retrieve a shampoo bottle they'd dumbly balanced on the top.

I kind of don't mind the moving of the shower cubicle... it was the blatant lie and attempt to confuse me into believing a staff member (ha, if only we had staff!!) hadn't done their job properly that got me. They won't be welcome back.
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GillianF



Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 802
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes! There are three basic defences to any situation:

1. We didn't do it.

2. It was like that when we got here.

3. A big boy came and done it.

Of course, I'm talking about children - usually!
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Mouse



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 7249
Location: Balearics

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing correct Gillianf!

Yes it's the childlike lies isn't it?

We do the garden at 7am and as guests were up and about Mr M asked if he could have the yellow outside table (that was no where to be seen, so obviously inside somewhere, he hoped) to clean.
What yellow table?
He pointed to its equal, 'like that'.
No we've not seen a yellow table.
'Well it was there when you all arrived'
No you must be mistaken we'd have remembered a yellow table.

10 mins later whilst chatting to guest he spied the yellow table inside in the lounge. 'Ah there it is' he said whilst pointing to it.
Guests without any shame....oh you mean that one.
Laughing

Please god let us sell this place before next summer.

Mousie
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GillianF



Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 802
Location: Dordogne

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Please god let us sell this place before next summer."

Hallelujah to that one!!
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