Do Covid restrictions mean I have a case to withhold taxes?

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chrishax
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Do Covid restrictions mean I have a case to withhold taxes?

Post by chrishax »

As a UK non-French-domicile with a holiday home in France, I am subject to two sets of high property taxes (city and national I think), and yet I am not allowed to travel there at the moment, and am newly constricted to 90 days out of a rolling 180.

In that case, where I am denied practical usage by the French government, is anyone aware of a movement or 'right' to with-hold a portion of state and city taxes?

My end point would be that I am newly disallowed half of the year in residency, and yet already charged a premium as an overseas owner...and yet further disallowed time due to French Covid travel restrictions.

Any thoughts? !!!
Circé
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Post by Circé »

Yes, I have thoughts:
I think you are referring to the two property taxes, Taxe Foncière which is payable by the owner of land/property, and Taxe d'Habitation which is paid by owner-occupiers, or, in the case of rentals of more than a year, by the occupier.
The rate of taxation will depend on location and the type of property - the taxes on a small one-wc house in deepest rural France will be less than those on a two-bathroom flat on the Côte d'Azur for example.
There is no exoneration for non-residents, whatever their time or Covid limits on coming to France.
For official information on Taxe Foncière see:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuli ... droits/F59
For official information on Taxe d'Habitation see:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuli ... droits/F42

On your Taxe d'Habitation you will see an additional amount for the Redevance Audiovisuel, or TV licence in English. The only way to avoid this as a non-resident is to write a letter declaring that you have no TV receiving device in the property, if that is in fact the case. Otherwise you pay it.

Hope that helps.
Anno
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Post by Anno »

Hello Chrishax,
Circé's post is helpful. If we are indeed talking about the taxe d'habitation and taxe foncière, then the tax has nothing to do with whether you actually use the property, it simply applies because you own it (foncière) and/or have the right to live in it (habitation) whether or not you actually do.
Are you sure you're charged more as a non-resident? I've never heard of that, although I know some towns in France charge more in the case of second homes (a student in my family discovered this to his horror for taxe d'habitation, although when he proved his student status the normal rate applied). But that would be based on the fact of it being a second home, not on where the owner lived.
chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

Yes, Anno, there is a much higher rate for foreigners in Nice, a rate which was supposed to be phased out, over a vague period, and I highly doubt they will phase it out at all now.

I can accept part of the issue of ownership as a basis of tax, but not of occupancy, since firstly: . France has imposed Shengen terms so I can only be resident for 6 months, not 12, and secondly that both UK and France have imposed travel restrictions preventing me from having fair use of the property.

But if no other second home owners feel similarly or take action then I won't take on the French government alone !!! But the taxes are initially discriminatory, and their travel and residency is further discriminatory, to the point of potentially with-holding a portion of the taxes..that's my feeling
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Moliere
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Post by Moliere »

I’m not sure if it’s relevant, but my property taxes reduced significantly when we moved into our house in France, which was previously used as a holiday home. Before that, we were paying full whack Fonciere and Habitation, about € 1800 each. We moved in and the Habitation reduced, then after submitting my first tax return it dropped to zero. This was some sort of complicated formula based on our age (we’re pensioners), our income and the amount of income tax we were paying. I don’t pretend to understand it, but I’m certainly not arguing.
As for your position re “third-country” rules of visitor time, I think the response would be: Brexit was a British decision, France has not changed its rules, so it’s your problem, nothing to do with us.
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chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

Thanks Moliere, perhaps I should reply with some Racine?!

The situation you describe does indeed describe how certain areas in France overcharge expatriates, while currently not allowing them to live in the property anyway.

The view you put might well be that of the French government, but is no more legally valid, since there are agreements requested that France declined to accept in negotiation, so yes they DID have the chance to be fairer to expats but chose not to for wider political purposes. Vaccines anyone ???!!!!

In simple terms we cannot use more than half the resources of any other resident, yet we contribute more than a third more than those who use the resources fully.

So, still a basis for debate...!
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Moliere
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Post by Moliere »

chrishax wrote: The view you put might well be that of the French government, but is no more legally valid, since there are agreements requested that France declined to accept in negotiation, so yes they DID have the chance to be fairer to expats but chose not to for wider political purposes.
I'm not sure what agreements you're referencing here, chrishax, perhaps you could enlighten me. But on the other matters, firstly it's common for countries to apply different property taxes to non-residents (eg Spain, the UK, Switzerland, Austria), secondly the limited visiting time for "third country" residents is EU law - it existed before the Brexit vote and presumably those who voted Leave took it into account, so from the French point of view, nothing has changed except the classification of the UK from EU member to third country.
Jumping is just dressage with speed-bumps.
chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

the proposals were for reciprocal rights of free movement, (eliminated early on by the EU rather than the UK) and also a working party and appeal/petition directly to each French City jurisdiction to provide specific terms for visiting second homes - also reciprocal.

As far as I know, around 10,000 of the 200,000 UK citizens with homes in France are writing to the Mairie (a form letter plus specifics) This appeal has basically entered a black hole of French policy making.
chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

...and to the issue of EU law, this 'law' is hardly ever applied consistently or wholly...so for example there are the golden visa loopholes in many countries, other countries are non Shengen currently (Cyprus, Croatia) , while even before Covid many of the largest EU countries routinely found allegedly urgent reasons to close their borders to migration.

So, 'the law' over time is rather proved by its application, not by its words, which is generally political rather than legal in Europe currently. EU is happy to make laws which they then choose to apply or exempt, so there's little authority in falling back exclusively on 'the law' ..that's just one outsider's view of course....
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Moliere
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Post by Moliere »

chrishax wrote:the proposals were for reciprocal rights of free movement, (eliminated early on by the EU rather than the UK)
Really? I thought it was the UK that rejected free movement and as a result couldn't stay in the single market, etc. As I recall the Brexit rallying cry was to "take back control of our borders", which would be impossible with free movement.

Good luck with the petition, I think it might well have some chance of success - the idea as I recall is to enable the 90 day stays to be amalgamated into one stay of up to 180 days, which would make sense. It is possible of course to buy an annual visa, this is what some friends are considering at the moment.
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Moliere
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Post by Moliere »

Interesting! I've just read that under FoM rules technically Brits and other EU members have never had the right to spend more than 90 consecutive days in another EU country!

Of course this rule was not policed and "was honoured more in the breach than in the observance", as some minor Danish royalty said. Also without a passport entry date it was difficult to prove. So the petition is asking to give Brits a right that in fact they never had, and EU citizens don't have.
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Martha
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Post by Martha »

If you're not using the property you're also not contributing to the local economy, shopping in the local shops, eating in local restaurants etc etc. That's always been my understanding on why local taxes can be higher on second homes. Having housing empty is bad for the locality itself.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Brexit and all it has wrought, but I don't think you've got a case here.

Moliere - yes that's correct technically I believe, but as you say, France never enforced it in any way before.
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chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

Moliere wrote:
chrishax wrote:the proposals were for reciprocal rights of free movement, (eliminated early on by the EU rather than the UK)
Really? I thought it was the UK that rejected free movement and as a result couldn't stay in the single market, etc. As I recall the Brexit rallying cry was to "take back control of our borders", which would be impossible with free movement.
The difference, which it suited the negociators to conflate, is that Uk, some of Northern France, and tourist/seaboard areas of France (+spain) all wanted a free movement agreement, but not a right to work or emigrate/LIVE in another country.

Until it became politically charged there were proposals for free movement of people and goods, but not residency. It was a victim of the negotiations, and an EU 'decision'
chrishax
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Post by chrishax »

Martha wrote:If you're not using the property you're also not contributing to the local economy, shopping in the local shops, eating in local restaurants etc etc. That's always been my understanding on why local taxes can be higher on second homes. Having housing empty is bad for the locality itself.
It's an appealing message, but it doesn't really hold water under examination, because the government is making the properties MORE empty by the 90 day rule, and moreover when they are there, expats inject far more into the economy than an average citizen does...the exact stats I have not seen, but any second home owners I am aware of budget far more for living expenses, and 'entertainment' than they would when living in their home country.

Moreover they promised to reduce this disparity (in Nice) and have not done so, so the steep premium remains.

For what it is worth we potentially would have 90% occupancy on our property - 50% from us (Oct-April), and then it is rented May-October...again not fitting this convenient characterisation,

But yes, Brexit is a sad old mess !
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CSE
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Post by CSE »

I am sorry I go not see a relationship between not paying your taxes and Covid. After all you would be the same situation if you could not travel for any health reason.
A fiscal representative can do this for you.
The debate about the lack of freedom.
After reading this your views on who killed it may need to be revised. https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/ne ... f-movement
or watch this from when Cameron was the PM. It started way before the referendum.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-25780683
This year looks as if it could be an even worse year for you if you only aim the rental mainly for the Brits.
The UK government has made travelling abroad even more difficult as there are going to be huge fines imposed on those leaving the country for a vacation. That is on top of any Covid tests or isolation they have to pay for.
Never try to out-stubborn your guests.
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