Well, I would kill to know what can be left out.
Any volunteers? (and whisper, GG's OH is a lawyer.....) and I think they're great.
Keep in mind with owner resident in Country A, punter resident in Country B and Holiday Home in Country C, if things got serious with T&Cs then maybe an unenforceable legal minefield would loom on the horizon?
MG
How much details do you give to start?
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Mountain Goat
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Giddy Goat
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Possibly MG, the font size does come up fairly small I guess on ours - unless force of habit has tempted you to slip a few extra clauses in? (-Mountain Goat wrote:I thought you very kindly let us pinch yours! Are we just talking size of font here?
)I haven't had time yet to visit the French translations you so kindly sent - but will of course.Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
TBH MG,
Do you remember my asking about T & Cs?? a while back,
and saying I wanted a very basic.....
'This is you..these are the dates, and if you do this youre 'outta here' ..T & Cs plea,
While thinking what to put in mine...
Well, someone kindly sent me their simple version [Ruth]. Which I... cut in half and used......
Probably, absolutely useless, and I expect I will find that out one of these days
But marginally better than what Ive used up to now which has been nowt...
Actually, the Booking form, I started using at the same time.[Ruth again] Has saved me already ,from a potential mixup.
Because after agreeing dates by email, and phone.Someone suddenly realised, whan filling in the Booking Form, that hed given me the wrong dates.....!!![repeatedly...]
Do you remember my asking about T & Cs?? a while back,
and saying I wanted a very basic.....
'This is you..these are the dates, and if you do this youre 'outta here' ..T & Cs plea,
While thinking what to put in mine...
Well, someone kindly sent me their simple version [Ruth]. Which I... cut in half and used......
Probably, absolutely useless, and I expect I will find that out one of these days
But marginally better than what Ive used up to now which has been nowt...
Actually, the Booking form, I started using at the same time.[Ruth again] Has saved me already ,from a potential mixup.
Because after agreeing dates by email, and phone.Someone suddenly realised, whan filling in the Booking Form, that hed given me the wrong dates.....!!![repeatedly...]
Last edited by Big Sis.. on Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
With regard to this, the problems that Fibi is having on another thread with her holiday home in Scotland and her badly begaved English guests would indicate that this is all too true. So are the T's and C's really worth the paper they are written on?Mountain Goat wrote:
Keep in mind with owner resident in Country A, punter resident in Country B and Holiday Home in Country C, if things got serious with T&Cs then maybe an unenforceable legal minefield would loom on the horizon?
MG
Margaret,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're onsite, so you don't need lengthy T&Cs. Our "guests" are actually tenants who sign a 5 page, very comprehensive lease including several standard legal notices. In 5 years, I have only ever had 2 people not return it signed, and that was because they intended to exceed occupancy limits, then thought better of it once they saw the lease. I do not publish my T&Cs online except in very broad terms, so the length of the document and legal language is only presented to them after they have said they want to go ahead, and therefore has absolutely no impact on my conversion rate at all. I agree with MG that i would far rather have everything written down so there is no misunderstanding should something unexpected happen.
So far as first response, mine is very lengthy also and does confirm the rates for their preferred dates. I do this because the listing sites recommend people to confirm rates with the owner, and we do say in some of our ads that rates are subject to change without notice, so I think this is expected.
It's tricky getting a balance into a template letter, because some people have memorized every word of our personal website before first contact and others haven't even seen it, they are responding to a fairly cursory listing site. I have kind of settled on about 8 paragraphs, 3 of them personalized. I have tried sending short chatty responses just answering their questions without providing additonal information and never seem to hear back, so my sense is that you get one shot at it, and if you don't grab their attention in that first email, including reminding them which property you are responding about, then you have more or less lost them.
5 or 6 cancellations in a year seems an awful lot - I have less than one a year, not sure why yours would be more - just bad luck I guess.
p.s: Didn't see LV question before, so I'll add - our lease is a legally binding docment that yes, would stand up in court (although thankfully I have never had occasion to be there). Any dispute would normally be heard in the jurisdiction of where the events took place, ie. the property location, but again, the jurisdiction where any disputes would be heard should be stated in your T&Cs. ......of course getting any money out of someone on the other side of the world is a different matter.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're onsite, so you don't need lengthy T&Cs. Our "guests" are actually tenants who sign a 5 page, very comprehensive lease including several standard legal notices. In 5 years, I have only ever had 2 people not return it signed, and that was because they intended to exceed occupancy limits, then thought better of it once they saw the lease. I do not publish my T&Cs online except in very broad terms, so the length of the document and legal language is only presented to them after they have said they want to go ahead, and therefore has absolutely no impact on my conversion rate at all. I agree with MG that i would far rather have everything written down so there is no misunderstanding should something unexpected happen.
So far as first response, mine is very lengthy also and does confirm the rates for their preferred dates. I do this because the listing sites recommend people to confirm rates with the owner, and we do say in some of our ads that rates are subject to change without notice, so I think this is expected.
It's tricky getting a balance into a template letter, because some people have memorized every word of our personal website before first contact and others haven't even seen it, they are responding to a fairly cursory listing site. I have kind of settled on about 8 paragraphs, 3 of them personalized. I have tried sending short chatty responses just answering their questions without providing additonal information and never seem to hear back, so my sense is that you get one shot at it, and if you don't grab their attention in that first email, including reminding them which property you are responding about, then you have more or less lost them.
5 or 6 cancellations in a year seems an awful lot - I have less than one a year, not sure why yours would be more - just bad luck I guess.
p.s: Didn't see LV question before, so I'll add - our lease is a legally binding docment that yes, would stand up in court (although thankfully I have never had occasion to be there). Any dispute would normally be heard in the jurisdiction of where the events took place, ie. the property location, but again, the jurisdiction where any disputes would be heard should be stated in your T&Cs. ......of course getting any money out of someone on the other side of the world is a different matter.
Last edited by A-two on Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
You are right that everthing is easier to control when you are onsite although we do have guests in when we are away, with no problems.
I do think that 8 paragraphs is very long. Although I tend to write similar stuff back to most people, tailored to their questions, I don't have a written template because that would make me lazy! I would only write a reply that long if I had been asked a lot of questions or ones which were complicated - answering the question 'Can I do a day trip to Prague from your house' involves a 'Yes, but.....' answer for example.
I don't think anyone has disagreed with telling people exactly what their proposed stay would cost and confirming availability. That is fundamental. Giving people a complete price list is something different. Also we have a slightly complicated pricing system and it is fair enough that people want confirmation of the actual total, final price.
MG - why do you not have all this information on your website? Of course, many people don't read it or take it in. But many of our enquirers (especially now that more are coming direct from our website) are reading it and they also keep going back to it in the months leading up to their holiday to check on things.
Our booking confirmation and T&Cs is 2 pages, our maps and directions are 2 pages. An amazingly high proportion don't read those either!
I do think that 8 paragraphs is very long. Although I tend to write similar stuff back to most people, tailored to their questions, I don't have a written template because that would make me lazy! I would only write a reply that long if I had been asked a lot of questions or ones which were complicated - answering the question 'Can I do a day trip to Prague from your house' involves a 'Yes, but.....' answer for example.
I don't think anyone has disagreed with telling people exactly what their proposed stay would cost and confirming availability. That is fundamental. Giving people a complete price list is something different. Also we have a slightly complicated pricing system and it is fair enough that people want confirmation of the actual total, final price.
MG - why do you not have all this information on your website? Of course, many people don't read it or take it in. But many of our enquirers (especially now that more are coming direct from our website) are reading it and they also keep going back to it in the months leading up to their holiday to check on things.
Our booking confirmation and T&Cs is 2 pages, our maps and directions are 2 pages. An amazingly high proportion don't read those either!
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Giddy Goat
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Margaret has more than one unit Anon2, and also takes bookings further ahead than some of us I think - not exactly sure on that.Anon2 wrote:5 or 6 cancellations in a year seems an awful lot - I have less than one a year, not sure why yours would be more - just bad luck I guess.
Anon2, do you also send attachments with that email? Just wondering how yours would look like side by side with MG's? And are you happy with your conversion rate?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Margaret's cancellation rate matches mine roughly on 2 properties, I think it's MG who said he had 5 or 6. Even with 3 apartments, that still seems high to me. Do you refund if canceled within a certain time MG?
GG, no I don't have any attachments except inventory of house contents which goes out with the lease usually.
No, I don't send all the rates, only to confirm the rate for their preferred dates, but because some people say they are flexible on dates I add a sentence which says, prices range from X to X, and please visit our website.
Regarding the personal letter, rather than a template, I applaud anyone who hand crafts every letter. I don't have the time unfortunately, only to add a sentence or two. I'm sure it makes a difference if you can, but I'm working full time as well.
GG, no I don't have any attachments except inventory of house contents which goes out with the lease usually.
No, I don't send all the rates, only to confirm the rate for their preferred dates, but because some people say they are flexible on dates I add a sentence which says, prices range from X to X, and please visit our website.
Regarding the personal letter, rather than a template, I applaud anyone who hand crafts every letter. I don't have the time unfortunately, only to add a sentence or two. I'm sure it makes a difference if you can, but I'm working full time as well.
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Hells Bells
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Giddy Goat
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I think anyone from any 'market' may need to cancel due to all the usual unforseen circumstances. I'm tempting fate I know by writing this, but we haven't had a cancellation in our three years of renting, but I put that down to luck, and not to the type of guest we attract.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
Yep that must be it Margaret can we advertise for 'em do you reckonI think we do have unusually high quality tenants
Ive been lucky that Ive only had a couple of cancellations for genuine reasons[daughter was in hospital and they changed until later] and had a lovely time for one...
But actually I wouldnt class mine as being 'High quality tenants'..just nice normal people wanting a nice normal holiday in a nice normal house.
So just goes to show really doesnt it.
.Normal Tenants make good ones as well.