Dreamweaver Firefox Problem

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Hanorah
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Dreamweaver Firefox Problem

Post by Hanorah »

rich_sipe wrote:Hanorah, I just wanted to let you know that when you view your site: http://www.villahanorah.co.uk/ in Firefox (an alternate to IE) it runs all together with some of the text being over some of the images and some of the text being over other text. I think Firefox is only 10% of the market but just wanted to let you know. Hope it helps.
On another thread someone pointed out my site looked awful in Firefox. I downloaded the browser and it really does everything is overlapping etc.

My question is does anyone know if this is a problem with Firefox or my webpages or template. It had been designed in Dreamweaver and looks fine in IExplorer. I have not got a clue how to sort this out as it also looks fine in Dreamweaver design mode it is only when I preview it in Firefox the problem occurs.

I am using a style sheet, template, and layers with a few tables here and there. If anyone has any ideas I would be most grateful.
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rich_sipe
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Post by rich_sipe »

I know that some will really disagree with me (including the page ranker that was posted on this site :roll: ) BUT that said, I hate the absolute positioning CSS styles. I have had nothing but trouble with getting these to be cross-browser friendly.

For those non-techies:
When you place elements on your site you have a couple of choices on how to tell the browser where to display them: One is to use tables to align the items and a second is to use CSS to exactaly place the items on the page. In this case, your the site is set up using css absolute position.

Code: Select all

<div id="Layer3" style="position&#58;absolute; width&#58;147px; height&#58;28px; z-index&#58;3; left&#58; 783px; top&#58; 292px;">
This tells the browser exactally where to place the element(s) [292px from top and 783px from the left]. Well, this assumes that all browers read the "directions" the same way. As we have proven here they don't. So, while this gives you greater power to place images and elements right where you want them and overlap etc, if very careful attention is not paid the results can get garbled. Once you go down the road of crazy code it is hard to find you way back.

I DO use CSS for all my text styles, table styles, and almost everything else but hardly ever use
"position:absolute" unless there is no other way I can do it. That said I have done a couple of sites where I used it CIMLS for example.

My suggestion is painful and will probably get :twisted: by other CSS loving developers is to do a rewite of your template to put everything in tables (nested tables are the best so don't try to put everything in one table like Adobe Photoshop does when it exports because that is also impossible to maintain).[/code]
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Hanorah
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Post by Hanorah »

Hi thanks for the reply. I used dreamweaver layers and tables only in the design mode as I know nothing about coding. I still can not understand how it can look fine in IE is this because IE is more compatible with dreamweaver. I guess at least I used a template so if I can that right it will be fairly easy to update all other pages on my site. I also used a style sheet so guess my site is designed in CSS but you obviously need some coding skills to get it right. Well you live and learn and I have been looking on the web about this problem and it seems with dreamweaver it is quite a common thing to display incorrectly in Firefox. Thanks for the advice.
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

Hi Hanorah,

Firefox browser is based on open, web standards, and Dreamweaver uses some proprietary code, so I'm not surprised you are experiencing that problem.

I would argue that proprietary technologies has, in some ways, ruined the internet.

Also, table based web design/layout has become defunct. Tables should only really be used for tabular data, not for presentational aspects of web design.

Back in the old days designers used tables extensively for layout because old fashioned browsers, mainly IE, did not properly support CSS, so tables were the work-around.

Table based designs make web sites slow. I know we all mostly use broadband these days so we think these sites are fast, but by comparison to a properly structured and semantically correct web site, with presentational elements purely in CSS, they are not.

If you have some time, I recommend having a read through the following site:

www.webstandards.org

With better browser technology and Internet 2.0 technologies in general, we are starting to see some beautifully designed and lean web applications springing up, which is enriching user experience.

In a lot of cases, these applications are refusing to support old browser technology, in particluar the notoriously bad IE 5. Last year Easyjet redesigned their site and, as a Mac user using IE5 for the Mac, I was unable to use their booking form.

At the time I was outraged, but after some research into this I came to appreciate their decision, and even applauded it. Earlier this year I upgraded to Mac OSX and started using Firefox and have not looked back.

Web standards is the key to a good on-line user experience.[/url]
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Garri,

Judging from your postings I am guessing that you are a great fan of CSS. I suppose it is the way into the future of the Internet but, at least for the time being, does it not bring with it its own problems?

I may be wrong but it seems to me that:-
  • 1. Many older browsers still in use do not support much, if any, of CSS.

    2. The latest versions of browsers are not really up to speed with CSS and support it in different ways. This means that you need to do a lot of careful cross-browser checking and produce browser specific coding.

    3. For those who are not experts in hand written coding CSS is an extremely difficult environment. HTML editors, e.g. Dreamweaver, appear not to produce much in the way of CSS coding so there is no alternative to hand written coding.
To create a personal website, editors like Front Page and Dreamweaver appear to be the best alternatives for the time being. The end result may not be theoretically perfect or cutting edge but there is a far better chance of the website working cross-platform and cross-browser?

Alan
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

Hi Alan,

I'm not so much a fan of CSS but rather well structured and designed web sites. Design is becoming increasingly important these days as people are becoming more and more discerning about what looks right and what doesn't.

One off-topic example is Clipper Tea Company. They took the decision to redesign their packaging and the result was an increase of 400% in turnover, or was it profit. Either way, that's a nice increase.

We are indeed at a transitional point in the browser scene and good old MS has been pretty slow in this regard. What we have been in need of is standards.

The idea that some web sites don't work on a Mac actually goes against the spirit of the internet, especially when you consider that the guy who developed the world wide web, Tim Berners Lee, developed it using a NeXT workstation (set up by ex-Apple guru Steve Jobs). Some of the technology used in that system is now being used in Apple's OSX, which is by far the most advanced OS on the market today, that's how far ahead of the game Steve Jobs was (and still is with his excellent iPod product)

Personally, I would not recommend that anyone uses Front Page to design a web site. I have used both DW and FP and at the end of the day, from what I do know about html & css, it's much easier to hand code using a text editor such as BBEdit.

Anyone interested in doing it by hand should start here:

http://www.westciv.com/

They offer excellent tutorials in xhtml and css. Well worth a visit.

As soon as I discovered I couldn't use certain sites with IE5 for the Mac I upgraded and started to use Firefox. I'm glad I did as I have re-discovered the web (they say that, and for me it's true)

It's like having new glasses. The things you thought looked OK before now look awful!

With regard to cross-browser checking, even that is starting to become defunct. There's a growing number of cutting edge designers who have coded their sites so that the presentational aspects of their sites 'degrade' in older browsers. That is to say, that the content is still there, the structure is still there and the sites are accessible and even work on other devices such as PDAs, text readers, mobiles etc, but they don't look as nice. Key point being, the info is still all there and people can still use the sites.

If the balance was shifted to more people using Macs than Pacs (PCs) then imagine how beautiful the internet would look.

Just a thought, we can only dream!
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Post by Clexane »

It is important that your site is compatible with Firefox (and others). The proprietry technology pushed by Microsoft has led to a huge reduction in competition and that means that we the consumer lose.

I use Firefox not only because I find it much better to use but also on principle of promoting competition. Any site that does not load properly on Firefox I just click past unless I must use it which is almost never.
So you wanted a holiday home in france ...

www.villaemmanuelle.com
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Garri,

I don't disagree with you.

My point is that most people who want to create their own websites do not have the knowledge or the skill to hand code and, why should they? They will use the HTML editor of their choice.

Certainly, there are ways of making a site "degrade" according to the user and his/her equipment and making a site cross-browser and cross-platform. The trouble is, that demands an in-depth knowledge of all versions of all browsers on all platforms, a knowledge which is quite beyond most people. It also demands a complete fluency in HTML/CSS et al. which again is quite beyond most people.

For the time being, I think the answer is a well designed site coded by using an editor whether that is Front Page, Dreamweaver, HotMetalPro or whatever.

Having worked my way through IBM 5110, DEC PDP/RSTS, DEC Vax/VMS, Unix/Xenix (with and without X-Windows), SunSystems, MAC's and PC's I have finished up with my own PC network. Why? Because I inherited a load of PC's and a ton of Windows software with which I was totally familiar. On second thoughts, perhaps it's because I am a masochist enjoying beating myself up every day?

I am often attracted by the thought of converting totally to MAC's or to Linux. But then I think of the cost, the relative shortage of software, the learning curve and the attraction disappears. I am now 69 years of age and I am now just another user. It works for me so, what's to be gained?

Regards

Alan
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

Hi Alan,

Making the switch to the Mac platform is not as costly as it was and with more and more web based applications, that are cross-platform, it's becoming easier to make that switch.

Unfortunately, I have to also use PCs here for a legacy database system written 10 years ago in Windows. It is networked to a new PC (for testing only) and 2 Macs - old and new.

They all share the same keyboard, monitor and mouse and hey, guess which platform I have the most trouble with?!

My point about WYSIWYG editors is that they are actually harder to use than pure html/css. If someone can take the trouble ordering a book and proprietary software, that they also have to spend several hundreds of pounds to buy, then they must surely be able to learn and understand basic html/css.
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

Good point Clexane, users can easily click away from a site that doesn't work to a site which does - that's the beauty of the internet and competition.

The internet is rapidly changing and take up of non-proprietary technologies such as AJAX are gaining momentum, rapidly.

That hasn't yet filtered down to the mainstream yet but it will, eventually.

Right now, a lot of the cool stuff out there, such as Flickr.com, are what they are calling Folksonomies (social software). This is predicted to be the next big thing.

Bear in mind that it's only this year that Blogging has started to become mainstream despite it starting in 2001. A lot of the technologies behind the blogging scene are shaping the internet now.

The result should lead to overall better user experiences. If users are made to feel smart and your site/solution makes their lives easier then they will use your site and more importantly, tell others about it.

People will only muddle through bad web sites until someone down the road builds one better.
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Garri,

Again I don't disagree. I simply find it difficult to justify the expense, etc. involved in my switching to the Mac platform.

I am not a Bill Gates or Microsoft hater so I have to consider the value of any benefits of such a switch and I think the benefits are minimal. I have the same feeling about a switch to Linux, which would cost a lot less money. In my position I really don't see the point.

I have similar feeling about browsers. I have and use IE, Firefox and Netscape. They don't look the same as each other but they all do the same job. I don't think that any one of them is better than the others, just different and the differences don't add to much.

When it comes to WYSIWYG or HTML editors I think they are purchased on the basis that you install it, run it and you are creating from day one. It's only then that reality appears - there is a lot to learn and a very steep learning curve to overcome. Too late! The user is not going to throw his/her money away so he/she sticks with the editor.

Alan
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

All fair points Alan, and I don't disagree either.

I actually admire Bill Gates and think he's OK. I just don't like his company, nor its technologies. His technologies have enabled and empowered people but at same time have promoted mediocrity.

When I win the lottery I promise to buy you top of the range Apple kit and software to go with it :wink:

Imagine if Apple designed a holiday rental site with the elegance of the iPod, and ease of use as iTunes - now wouldn't that be lovely!
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Garri,
When I win the lottery I promise to buy you top of the range Apple kit and software to go with it
I love the thought and look forward to your lottery win with the greatest anticipation. In return I would provide you with free accommodation while you do the installation.

No one could argue with your dream with the one proviso that it would have to achieve maximum visibilty.

Regards

Alan
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Garri
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Post by Garri »

In return I would provide you with free accommodation while you do the installation.
Alan, you're on! Although, I doubt you'd need my help in setting it up as it can be done in 3 easy steps:

Step 1 - Plug it in
Step 2 - Switch it on
Step 3 - there is no step 3!

Notice I said when, not if I win - one has to be positive about these things, or rather stupidly optimistic :wink:
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Garri,

So the guy on the Yellow Pages advert had just bought a Windows PC?

Alan
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