Why not use frames?

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Goosey
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Why not use frames?

Post by Goosey »

Can anyone tell me why everyone advises against not using frames in a website? I've used them in Dreamweaver and they give me my desired effect, but I don't know why they're so 'bad'? Can anyone give me a good reason why not?
e-richard
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Re: Why not use frames?

Post by e-richard »

Goosey wrote:..everyone advises against not using frames in a website?
I see most advice against using frames rather than against not using frames :wink: :lol:

Anyway, to be a bit more serious, here's some thoughts:

1. Well dear, they are just soooo old fashioned :oops:
(well, who cares ?)
2. One cannot bookmark individual pages e.g. your fishing page
(does this really matter to you ?)
3. Its bad for SEO. The search engines cannot find all your pages.
(I have never understood this one. Try a Google search on "fishing in Navarrenx". YOUR website is there on page 1 !)

Actually, I suspect there's a lot more to the SEO argument, but I also think that Search engines have come a long way since Frames were first considered a problem, and I've yet to be convinced that this is a good reason NOT to have frames.
** Richard
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Goosey
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Post by Goosey »

Thanks e-richard, at last someone who seems to make sense! I thought it was a sort of snobbery, now I'm convinced.
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kevsboredagain
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Post by kevsboredagain »

I would say the disadvantages are only minor.
- About 1% of people will be using browsers that don't support frames
- Bookmarking pages within your site can be a problem
- Printing can sometimes cause problems with frames
- Frames often annoy people but on your site their use is transparent so no problems there
- We can't see your source code without finding the frames names first :D

Obviously you could also use CSS to obtain exactly the same results but there is no right and wrong way of making a webpage in my opinion. You could reduce your source code by using some styles though which would make the pages easier to maintain and fractionally quicker to load.
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Giddy Goat
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Re: Why not use frames?

Post by Giddy Goat »

e-richard wrote: but I also think that Search engines have come a long way since Frames were first considered a problem, and I've yet to be convinced that this is a good reason NOT to have frames.
Hi Goosey and welcome to LMH! What a pretty property you have!

E-Richard has probably figured it was only a question of time before I popped up here, as he very kindly did a lot of work to our website, which for its first two years was constructed around frames. He took it out of frames and did lots of other refining, and we are delighted, as he knows.

Richard, do I understand you to mean from your comments that the frame thing is no longer the issue we thought it was when you first started tweaking our site?

All I can say, (Richard might be able to come up with other reasons why the following is the case) is that since coming out of frames, our website is getting found in its own right, which it wasn't doing before. The property is in Gascony, an area becoming better known now and cropping up as a search word perhaps more than it did when the website first went live, so that may be another reason, but ... :? Over to you, e-Richard!
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Goosey
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Post by Goosey »

Thank you Gascony Goat.

I really don't know another way of getting my site to look the way it does without using frames, so until I get really bored and learn how to use CSS that's the way it'll stay. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Giddy Goat
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Post by Giddy Goat »

Quite! It has a good domain name too! Are you getting lots of direct hits?

BTW Goosey, I found your listing on French Connections, but there is a problem on both Safari and IE with loading the page (Safari) and the availability calendar (both) at the mo. They might need a nudge perhaps?
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e-richard
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Re: Why not use frames?

Post by e-richard »

Gascony Goat wrote:Richard, do I understand you to mean from your comments that the frame thing is no longer the issue we thought it was when you first started tweaking our site?
That is, honestly, a very difficult question to answer. When we started tweaking your site, I was following "advice" from others here on LMH and did not have the skill set myself to judge. My comments here were based on subsequent experiences that seem, quite unscientifically, to contradict that advice.
Gascony Goat wrote:All I can say, ...is that since coming out of frames, our website is getting found in its own right, which it wasn't doing before.
I believe that the reason GasconyMagic is being found now, where it apparently wasn't before is more to do with the other improvements we (jointly) made with page titles and page descriptions for example. Things that you cannot readily do with a Frames based website.

So, yes, one can improve SEO without frames, but I remain unsure of the extent to which Frames per se will penalize you.
** Richard
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Giddy Goat
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Post by Giddy Goat »

OK - thanks Sir R! :)
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Goosey
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Post by Goosey »

GG, thanks again. I will point out the problems with Safari and IE to FC.
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Giddy Goat
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Post by Giddy Goat »

No probs, though I forgot to mention that the pages were fine on Firefox.
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thisfrenchlife
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Post by thisfrenchlife »

Goosey wrote:Thank you Gascony Goat.

I really don't know another way of getting my site to look the way it does without using frames, so until I get really bored and learn how to use CSS that's the way it'll stay. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Hi Goosey

I'm right with you on "if it ain't broke" but just to answer your question about making your site work without frames you would basically have the left column as a different file which is then included by the other pages such as your walking page.

So instead of changing all your pages you would change the left links section, or include file, that would then cascade through all the other pages.

For example this site I did for friends uses so-called "includes":

http://giteindordogne.com/

This is the basic principle behind blogging software, one change knocks through the whole site.

Also at the moment your walking page is hiding it's title, which is a key element in search engines, and with frames you run the risk of people arriving at your page like this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pilgri ... h+Meritein

Some people might just retype the address to get at your home page, but I think many people might just disappear.

I think frames can be a problem from a user perspective more than just search engines.

Hope this helps
Craig
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Post by Lee »

Goosey, to achieve your look without frames you could use the '#menu position:fixed' command within css to keep your menu fixed in position whilst scrolling.
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Lee wrote:Goosey, to achieve your look without frames you could use the '#menu position:fixed' command within css to keep your menu fixed in position whilst scrolling.
That's sort of OK but does IE (the world’s most popular browser) understand and support position:fixed? I think the answer is “NO�. IE7 might but IE5 and IE6, which are still used by many millions of people, most certainly do not.

In the absence of frames a lot of verbose CSS coding is needed to get IE to work properly with fixed menus (left, right, top or bottom) whilst pages scroll. I could give you some suggested coding but why should I bother? If a website isn’t broken, why fix it? If a website works with frames, why change it?

Without being overly aggressive about it I’m pleased this subject has come up. I think the question of frames goes to illustrate some differences between what is a well-proven and sensible tool with what is a fashionable and trendy attitude.

Please don’t get me wrong. I think that CSS is the “better� way to create a website but I don’t think it is the “only� way.

Alan
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Goosey
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Post by Goosey »

I would aim to change the way the website works (as long as it still looks the way I want it to), if someone had actually said to me that they have had trouble navigating it.

Not yet they haven't. And don't you go saying anything now! :wink:
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