on web anonymity, and the rising cost of human interaction.

[Paul Rutter]

I was just reading the how much does it cost posts and well, here goes.

"There are some occasions when if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. not so the internet where you can pay through the nose and still get; monkeys"

I believe it is the same for any 'industry' just more prevalent in the new media sector where 'new media buskers' as we call them are every where. I personally believe that the anonymity afforded by the internet has a lot to do with it. I hope that face to face meetings never go away I like to meet my clients its the only real way of judging them, and for them to judge you. [I use 'judge' advisedly :)] other wise it is just so much electronic hot air.

How much to charge for a web site? its a nightmare question that I have to answer quite often. As each new site is both quite similar but also unique, it is often difficult to convince a potential client that it will take any time at all to construct their site. well actually a lot of work goes into each site [if the person building it is paying attention to the details] Also most if not all of the work is 'hidden from view' and is difficult to 'justify' but you know, I have no clue what the mechanics at the Toyota garage really do, just a pretty good understanding of the idea of fixing my car, I just want it fixed and I will just have to trust them to do it, put the parts in and invoice me accordingly.

There it is, TRUST how can you trust an electronic 'idea' to build your site? How can I trust my clients to pay up? By meeting them and getting not only a feel for them, but also an insight into what it is they really need as opposed to what it is they have been told they want.

I charge my time out at €25 to €35 per hour, for design and technical work, which you may or may not think is a lot, but I have put over 15 years of my life, a degree and an MA into gathering the knowledge and expertise to do what I do [my lawyer friend charges €300 an hour, my plumber €20, my mechanic €45]
I am a graphic design and technical professional who has a human face and, I hope, a sense of humour, I live in the south of france, near Toulouse with my wife and four [yes four] kids, we are trying to scratch a living with what skills we have just like anyone else.

my last word.......Its not just about money, its about trust and quality.

Paul Rutter 12.04.05

[tansy]

Paul- is your number a land line or mobile?...just that with the diffferent areas i couldn't tell & my mobile is 06 - orange.

Just that I think land line published numbers make a big difference.

Sorry - not trying to be negative - I looked at your web site & couldn't get a sense of permanence as your site is being worked upon - the only numer is an 06 which I associate with mobiles...

[charles]

Wow, what a cheap plumber - what's the number

I agree with the face to face thing - I'm based in Wimbledon, London - but curiously enough I'm struggling to find local customers - most of my business comes from the States! But then I'm branching out in a specialised piece of software which is popular 'over there' though it's produced in the Ukraine! But Americans are good & prompt payers so I'm not complaining..!

Internet should have been called Interweird..

l8r
Charles

[Paul Rutter]

plummers cheaper in the Ariege but dont tavel to wombledon much. call Frank Bendir of Laborie and see if he will come over.

I can do buisness over distance and have no real problem with it, its just all so impersonal and discussions can get a bit protracted online. I suppose that 80% of any project contact is done electronically but the 20% face to face makes all the difference to me. [I get to visit some very beutifull places and drink good coffee as well ]

The land line....... well yes I have to admit it does come across as a bit 'fly by night' with a mobile number, but its my 'contact telephone of choice' as I also do computer maintanace which takes me out and about a lot. have I put 'call me times' on the page?
Web site re-design should be finnished along with server upgrade issues any day now.

[rich_sipe]

The companies I have worked for charge over $120 / hour for application development and around $85 for web development. You can hire any highschool kid for $15 an hour but you usually get what you pay for. Most of our clients have been large companies so there are higher demands and expectations there (we are still a great deal for them because others charge upwards of $200/hr). Anyways, any creative endevor (graphics, web design, print design, etc. etc.) is always very difficult to price.

That said, I stand by my assertion on the previous thread (about a quote for someones personal site) that the particular quote was high (from the limited information i had on hand). There is a BIG difference between bidding on a fortune 500 contract and a vacation rental website. The needs and budgets are different and so must be the quotes.

I sometimes wish I made widgets so I could just price out the widget materials, labor, put a markup, and bingo-bango have the price and a widget to hand to the customer. Ahhhh that would be nice. I am just glad I am not a professional copy writer because that really seems tough to price....

My theory is to charge whatever you feel is on par with your work, skills, costs, and needs and the market will ultimatly dictate how good you are doing in your pricing. Boy I love capitalism

[vrooje]

I'm not really sure, but I have a feeling that the days of the individual charging $75+ per hour for web development may be over. I think €25 to €35 per hour is very reasonable, not an outrageous bargain for the consumer, but not too much either.

I cannot imagine paying or charging $200/hour for a web site! Especially if it's billed the way many lawyers bill -- charging you because they spent time "thinking and planning" while they were in their car or shower, and throwing in the cost of copies and postage. It always made me mad that our immigration lawyers were getting US$8000 from us and would still expect that we pay for the postage used in sending a letter to us. It seems, though, that many companies do it that way.

Since this is also developing into a numbers-type thread, I'll add mine to the pile: when I do web design I typically charge US$40 an hour. I decided on that because I didn't want to overcharge, but undercharging makes people suspect underqualification.

If anything, I underbill at that rate -- e.g., I wouldn't charge a client if I spent an hour figuring out a bug in my code which turned out to be a stupid error by yours truly. I could arguably include that because it's all part of the programming job (and most clients would never know), but I wouldn't feel right about it.

The last web site I made for someone was for a rental apartment in Paris, and I believe it was around US$900-$1000 for the entire thing. That included hosting and domain registration (in the client's name), making the client's copy SEO-friendly, of course the page code/image optimization, logo design, business card design, a PDF welcome packet and any small changes the client wants me to make in the future.

Whether that's standard or not, high or low prices for product received, I don't know.

However, this is not not NOT a plug for my services, as I don't have the time to do web design for others anymore. I just wanted to put it out there as one example, taken as-is.

I completely agree with you, Paul, that it is about trust and providing a quality result that can bring the client more revenue than they spent creating the product. I do agree that it is easiest to establish trust by an in-person meeting, but I also think that it can be done with a combination of phone conversations, a portfolio, and sheer competence (for example, responding with a result/solution as quickly to a web-design client as we all would to a new inquiry).

I also agree with you, rich, that you usually get what you pay for. However, I also think that rule has plenty of exceptions on both extreme sides of the pay rate. If you're willing to shop around, you could find a qualified college/grad student who has a good eye and writes efficient web code but undervalues him or herself -- voila, a deal for you (and you can tell them later that they should be charging more ). But if an individual tried to charge me upwards of $100/hour for a website and didn't have a successful ecommerce site under their belt, I'd absolutely turn them away, especially if my proposed project was a property website which has a cap on its annual income due to the finite length of the year.

I know I've written a lot and I suppose it's all just my standing on a soapbox, but maybe it'll be useful to someone about to be taken in by an unscrupulous designer or about to throw away even $15/hour on an unqualified person.

Cheers!

[paolo]

I agree, it's all about trust. If I needed to hire a web designer the first person I would talk to would be Brooke. Too bad she would tell me she doesn't have time. Anyway, I thought you were an astrophysicist, or astronaut, or something?

[rich_sipe]

I couldn't imagine freelancing at $40 because after taxes (especially self employment, ssn, medicare), costs, plus not being able to bill all your time (due to interaction and other non-billiable hours) it doesn't seem like it would be worth it. Of course I can't say what a good rate would be because it all depends on the work equation: Hours * $/hour = TOTAL So do it quicker at a higher price and the client still saves money. But do a bad job either way and who cares how much it costs! Research Research Research then flip a coin and you should be good-to-go.

If you fully trust the student doing your website and have seen other work by them then go for it but be very careful because back in my day I had to clean up sites where this sort of agreement didn't work out so well. Of course this goes for all your interactions with designers but with a experienced company/designer at least you can talk to previous clients etc.

I think for most small businesses (Vacation Rentals included) they are probably able to put together a simple and informative site with just some help. Get a freelance designer to put together a template. Slice it up and put it into Dreamweaver. Write your copy with the help of friends, family, staff, and forums like this. Get some honest reviews and go for it. If you need a more interactive (e-commerce, booking, db site) then talk to somebody good because you will save money later in time and difficulties.

[Paul Rutter]

RONCO QUOTOMATIC I wish I had one! But every job is different every clients needs are different, discounts for non profit companies and 'green' businesses, mates rates......just too complex to java up! Still each quote is never as simple as an hourly rate or a fixed cost, normally a mixture of the two and some educated guess work. I always give a devis and expect a bit of haggling [it would be rude not to ]

Useablity + simplicity + effectiveness + affordblity are my main watchwords when approaching a site design.

The last site I did was for a gite/auberge in the Aude. 36 pages in French and English booking forms, mailing list, gallery, nearly 200 images, logo design, navigational elements, SEO, photography and copy. Somewhere near the €2000 mark after the copy went into the bill. [Supplied text was a bit poor, so we discussed a serious polish up] this is why my own site upgrade has been put to one side. client very happy and enquiries comming in. The site will pay for it's self with a one week booking, not half bad. Now the 6 page brochure, a flyer, menus and a presentation pack are under way! musnt grumble


'Charging you because they spent time "thinking and planning" while they were in their car or shower' So, planning can be fun! I find the water ruins the sketches though

I agree with vrooje the preposterus over charging that went on in the 90's is over. I think that now we are in a period of 'balancing out', for better or worse the web wont go away, and more and more people will use it to communicate. 2 million+ independent bookings made online for holidays in France from Britain last year!
There will always be room for the 'amature' web builder [and good luck to them] but net savvy people will come to expect certain 'standards' an 'ease of use' and I think a general 'conformaty of design' will come You can already see it just over the horizon.


Ps. If anyone has a ronco 'quotomatic' please let me know.

[Paul Rutter]

well said rich_sipe.


not only the student web sites but the lodgings too

[vrooje]

I would love to be an astronaut! But alas, I am "just" an astrophysicist. It pays the bills, so I can pursue hobbies like web development at "only" $40 an hour.

Rich, I agree that costs and non-billable hours can add up, but at the end of the day it's also about demand and what people are willing to pay. That is largely region- and genre-specific, I would think. I also tutor and my rates, while average for my region, would shock people in some cities/areas and seem tame to people in others.

Cheers!

[paolo]

I am just glad I am not a professional copy writer because that really seems tough to price....

I couldn't agree more. I think all copywriters find this difficult. Sometimes you just have to come up with a strapline. One time I had to come up with one word. What do you charge for that? It depends on the value to the company. If you came up with 'Just do it' for Nike you would charge an awful lot.

In my experience the rental-owning market is not a very profitable one. We owners tend to be penny-watchers. With rental sites I can quote jobs at a quarter of my normal commercial rate and never hear back from the potential client.

That's why I have my doubts about Tom's top-of-the-range virtual tours - not sure there are enough owners willing to pay for his time, even if in the long run it would be well worth it.

[paolo]

2 million+ independent bookings made online for holidays in France from Britain last year!

Paul,

Where did you get that figure from? Is it official? Is there more information like this somewhere?

Thanks.