handing out bank details

Post scam emails to warn other rental owners, or if you are not sure if an enquiry is genuine, put it up here and see what others think.
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ourinns
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handing out bank details

Post by ourinns »

On "another" forum, I mentioned that I'd recently received a booking enquiry from the Antiles that looked relatively genuine in that it came from a "sensible" domain name, even quoted phone numbers etc. but I was a bit uneasy about it and turned it down when they claimed not to be able to pay me except by bank transfer for which, of course, they would need my bank details.

The folk on the other forum tell me that they commonly give out their bank details for payments like this so I thought that there would be some benefit of posting the warning on this forum too.

In a previous life, I was working in a place that made deposits into large numbers of accounts. Anyway, one time we made a teensy mistake and had to take the money out of thousands of accounts that we'd credited by mistake. There was absolutely no problem in doing this (aside from the admin hassle) even though we had no authorisation to make said withdrawals ie having someone's bank details lets you make both deposits and withdrawals from their account.

The only exception was with those accounts which were savings accounts because you can't do direct debits from them.

I bet that has seriously put the wind up those of you who hand out bank details so that people can pay you!

Incidently, this is how a lot of the "Nigerian" scams work. They eventually ask you for your bank details to credit the millions that their "cousin" has knocking around. Instead they use the very same bank details to debit your account.

What to do? Well, seeing as it appears a relatively common method of getting paid from some places, I was thinking about it and the safe way to do it seems to be to quote the details of a savings account rather than your current account. Even safer is to have a little account just for accepting such payments so you can clear it out when they arrive. I was thinking of using something like Smile or Egg but others would do equally well.



Arnold

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paolo
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Post by paolo »

Arnold,

I am totally uninformed in this area, but the reason I happily give out my bank details to renters is because I assume that there must be some sort of protection in place. Surely there is some level of security between my money and someone just requesting it to be transferred to their account? If not, wouldn't stealing from people's bank accounts be rampant?
Paolo
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ourinns
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Post by ourinns »

There are things in place to prevent such things happening which is presumably why there's not large scale riffling of everyones' account. However, having actually used bank details to withdraw money from accounts (for legit reasons before you report me to the fraud squad!), when all we had was authorisation to use the details to deposit money, I can assure you that it definitely can be done.

As a very simplistic example of how it can be done, think of the contents of a typical direct debit form:
- your name and address;
- the name and address of your bank;
- your bank account and sort code;
- your signature.

Now suppose that the person trying to rent your place is actually a fraudster who you've given your bank account and sort code to... They will have:
- your name and address;
- the name and address of your bank (looked up from the sortcode);
- your bank account and sort code.

All they have to do is scribble a signature on the form, post it and wait a month before the direct debit is live. Banks rarely check signatures so you can discount that as stopping them. Bear in mind too that your bank doesn't tell you when a new direct debit has been set up.

This is why I personally wouldn't give out bank details to potential renters unless they were the details of a savings account which has the additional protection of simply not allowing direct debits to be made.

You might want to edit out the "how to" details in the above.




Arnold
Fraise
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Post by Fraise »

paolo wrote:Arnold,

I am totally uninformed in this area, but the reason I happily give out my bank details to renters is because I assume that there must be some sort of protection in place. Surely there is some level of security between my money and someone just requesting it to be transferred to their account? If not, wouldn't stealing from people's bank accounts be rampant?
This is exactly what happened to us just before Christmas, someone rang up the bank claiming to be us,followed it up by a fax. No counter checks were made.The money was handed over- over £10,000 went off to Majorca,then onto N. Africa.The bank denies any responsibility because "we "asked for the money!!!Nope,not us...a fraudster!! The action is going before the courts later this year! Most people are completely baffled that no checks were made that the person asking for the money was in fact my husband, obviously it wasn't! How can this happen?? We thought our money was safe in the bank??????????? :evil:
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Post by Fraise »

Oops, forgot to mention this was a French bank (with 2 initials)-our Uk bank has assured us that they would have called back to ensure the person asking for the money could answer a couple of security questions.Apparently this French bank requests written authorisation to accept Fax dealings- none was ever given!!!
reddevil
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Post by reddevil »

Arnold,

All the above may be true, and I am sure there are more ways to remover money from somebody else's account - like sticking a gun in front of a cashiers face, for one.

But if this unfortunate event does happen, then shouldn't the bank have to give you your money back until they can prove that it was YOU who signed the direct debit?? And they would have the fraudsters bank details too and could find him (or her) easily because the fraudster will have had to produce umpteen documents to prove who he is.
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Fraise
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Post by Fraise »

Reddevil- the bank hasn't given us our money back!!They say it isn't their fault!!! :cry:
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

Fraise,

What was the reaction of the police when you reported this fraud?

Were they in the slightest way interested and are they investigating the matter?

Alan
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Hanorah
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Post by Hanorah »

It was interesting reading this. You may remember a little while ago I had a guest who wanted to book using the payment plan where we allow guests to pay monthly using a standing order.

I duely passed my details on but only had various excuses and she was either on holiday or in hospital. Reading this I wonder if it was the bank details she was after in the first instance. Luckily I had opened up a cahoot internet savings account especially for these transactions which seems like it was a good call now.

This is what is so good about a forum like this, we will now have the edge over the scammers and any new owners have a safe and friendly place to learn the ropes.

:twisted: Fraise I can't believe what happened to you. Why not contact a local paper and tell them your story. It is amazing what a little media interest can do and banks after all want to protect their reputation.

Me and some other mothers got a brothel shut down in our leafy suberb after the council and police had not shown the slightest bit of interest. We contacted our local paper and got an undercover reporter to do an expose. It was shut down in 2 days after the story appeared in a midnight raid. Seems the police were interested after all but only after it was reported they were not. They had visited the brothel previously after complaints and were happy to let it carry on until the paper got involved and their reputation was on the line.
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ourinns
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Post by ourinns »

Cahoot isn't safe either because it is a current account.

The only safe way to do it, so far as I know, is to quote the details of a savings account. It must be an "ordinary" savings account that doesn't allow direct debits or standing orders and preferably no fax transfers either by the sound of it.

I thought when I posted this initially that it would just help to head off problems for people. It's worrying that there are already a number of people who have already had it happen to them.



Arnold
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Ciapolin
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Post by Ciapolin »

I can't speak for the French banking system, but in the UK there are definitely some safeguards for you.

Whilst it is true that banks don't check signatures, if you query a payment on your account the first thing they will have to due is verify the payment. If the signatures differ, they have to recredit the money. In my experience, both as a banker and as a customer, the good banks will recredit you whilst investigations are ongoing.

Remember also, if you give someone a cheque, your a/c number and sortcode are on it anyway.

Generally banks will also make security checks, particularly on internet transactions.

That said, in Italy I have been horrified at the 'security' in place. I regularly go into the bank with no details (under new anti-terrorism laws in the UK this is now illegal!), and have even managed to pay money from my partner's a/c (by mistake!) without anyone querying. It is also common practice in Italy to give your bank details out.
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ourinns
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Post by ourinns »

It's true that you have your sort code and account number printed on cheques, you hand them out with your signature and in France your address is on them too (ie all the details required for fraud!). However, you presumably don't hand them to crooks (not intentionally anyway) whereas online you deal with people who you've never met.

It's also true that, in theory, "good" banks will recredit you with the money whilst investigations are ongoing. On the other hand, it's not a forgone conclusion that they will do this whereas quoting a savings account means that a) legit clients can put the money in and b) fraudsters can't take it out.

The basic problem is that it's becoming more and more difficult to tell the fraudsters from the legit clients. When I posted a question about my Antilles "client" on 'thother board, a very experienced old hand was sure that it was legit but it now appears that it wasn't. It's that hard to pick up on fraud these days.


Arnold
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Hanorah
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Post by Hanorah »

I only have a savings account with cahoot not a current account so I should be ok.
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Alan Knighting
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Post by Alan Knighting »

A step aside from e-mail scams but on the subject of the way that banks behave.

When I bought my property in France my UK solicitors instructed their bankers to transfer the balance due on completion to my French Notaire’s bank. Apparently, the route such transactions takes is:-

1. From UK bank to UK clearing centre in London,
2. UK clearing centre to Bank of France in Paris, and
3. Bank of France to French bank.

My Notaire kept telling me that the money had not arrived in his bank. He checked back through the system and was told by the Bank of France that no money had been received. My UK solicitors’ bank back-tracked the transaction and was assured that the money had gone to the Bank of France and that receipt had been confirmed.

Only three days before completion the Bank of France discovered that they had had the money all the time and only then forwarded it to my Notaire’s bank. The result was that the Bank of France had £200,000 of my money for three weeks, no doubt investing it on overnight interest rates. Any recompense? You’ve got to be joking. To add insult to injury I faced bank charges at each stage of the transaction. So much for the honesty of bankers, in my case the Bank of France.

Can anyone be surprised that banks in general are unwilling to face up to their responsibilities even when the problem is caused by their own incompetence?

Alan
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vrooje
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Post by vrooje »

Mascamps,

Thank you for this useful information!

All of this is why I generally stay away from bank transfers whenever possible. I'd rather pay a 4% premium on PayPal and know there are protections in place if someone tries to defraud me. The 4% isn't a lot more than some bank fees anyway, and excessive bank fees irritate me on principle, whereas I don't mind paying a fee for someone to process a credit card transaction.

The first time we transferred money from our own U.S. checking account to our own French checking account, our U.S. bank told us that if the account details were not exactly right, the money would get "lost" and we would never get it back! I couldn't believe that was so. Surely if the account couldn't be found, they'd have to return the money to its original account? We tried a very small sum of money first, and only after we had verified that the transfer would work did we transfer the amount needed to purchase our rental property.

I had always figured that if someone needed to use bank details I would give them a separate checking account, but a savings account makes a lot of sense. Thanks again!
Brooke
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