If they do not respond to a request to remove your ad, perhaps you can edit your ad so that there is no text and no pics.To edit your advertisements use the Advertiser Sign In link http://rentals.holiday.com/index.php/login. You have not been assigned a password so click on the link labeled "I forgot my password". When asked for an email address use xxxx.xxxx.france@wanadoo.fr
WARNING: holiday.com
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Regarding writing these people also please be aware that you can not hide yourself behind a different mail address unless you go to an Internet café or a computer on a different network.
Whatever you write from your own machine will have an IP address that can be traced back to you.
I have done some digging in the registrar information and I am pretty sure that the same company that is behind holiday com also owns the registrar for their domain.
This it not amateurs.
Whatever you write from your own machine will have an IP address that can be traced back to you.
I have done some digging in the registrar information and I am pretty sure that the same company that is behind holiday com also owns the registrar for their domain.
This it not amateurs.
I've just tried to do what Paolo suggested...but maybe I'm just too tired I cannot get my head round editing ...it is terribly complicated and labourious, I logged off...will try to find time tomorrow...this is probably what they want to hear....but I agree these are not chaps stumbling round in the dark...they know what they are at!
If you do write them back, you might point out that you didn't "verify" their search techniques. Not at all. Rather, you were alerted to their scam and specifically came to find your properties. No searching involved.holiday.com wrote: Holiday.com is using advertisements of the type we planed (sic) to attract, so the search technique can be verified. Since you found ads for your business, this must have worked. We are in the process of finding the owners of the data we have been using.
OK, OK. I just can't let it go: Holiday.com has stolen your data and is now holding it hostage... requiring a €30 ransom for each inquiry that is rightful yours, and yours alone. Grrr.
Finally, I'm sure this company really does have offices in Seattle (Bellevue). I worked in high-tech in Seattle, and hired across the USA and Canada, and their jobs page and descriptions, everything there, rings 1000% true for a Seattle-area company.
p.s.- Amusingly, they are hiring an editor/proofreader. And not a moment too soon based on the above quote.
Did some sleuthing:
Holiday.com
2225 109th AVE NE
Bellevue, WA 98004
A reverse search on the address reveals this name:
Per Gunnar H Westerdal
And this phone number for a Gunnar Westerdal at the above address:
(425) 455-3963
(I think his wife's name is Melody Westerdal. But I won't post her phone number.)
When not stealing copyrighted information, Gunnar plays tennis and is ranked with the USTA Pacific Northwest Section.
And here is a map. The neighbors have a nice pool...
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=2225+109t ... &t=k&hl=en
So is this our guy???
Well, if English is not his native language, it certainly explains the horrid spelling on the site and the use of "holiday" instead of "vacation" policy on the jobs page.
But, basically, we don't know. For now, this is just some publically available information about one Per Gunnar H Westerdal. Maybe I'll give him a call... Hello? Is this Gunnar? Of holiday.com? (click)
debk
Holiday.com
2225 109th AVE NE
Bellevue, WA 98004
A reverse search on the address reveals this name:
Per Gunnar H Westerdal
And this phone number for a Gunnar Westerdal at the above address:
(425) 455-3963
(I think his wife's name is Melody Westerdal. But I won't post her phone number.)
When not stealing copyrighted information, Gunnar plays tennis and is ranked with the USTA Pacific Northwest Section.
And here is a map. The neighbors have a nice pool...
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=2225+109t ... &t=k&hl=en
So is this our guy???
Well, if English is not his native language, it certainly explains the horrid spelling on the site and the use of "holiday" instead of "vacation" policy on the jobs page.
But, basically, we don't know. For now, this is just some publically available information about one Per Gunnar H Westerdal. Maybe I'll give him a call... Hello? Is this Gunnar? Of holiday.com? (click)
debk
I know, I know, I should go to bed. But just wanted to let y'all know that Gunnar is our guy:
1. Holiday Inc is a registered business with the State of Washington. (Unfortunately, we can't report him for doing biz without a license.) Address same as above. Account opened Sept 1, 2001.
2. Pergunnar & Melody Westerdahl had a company registered as SCAN WEST from 1976-1986 at the same address. Given that they still live there now, Holiday.com is their company.
3. Holiday.com lists Ascern as their whois admin contact. Ascern is also registered to Gunnar's address as of 2000.
So, if H-R gets no satistfaction, we could at least report holiday.com (online forms) to the WA State Attorney's office. They can contact the company for us, but can't do much else unless they get enough complaints to decide to file a complaint themselves.
Anyone else find it noteworthy that holiday.com is "wholly owned by Nordic Holdings, Inc."? . . . (Gunnar=Nordic)
So we know who he is and where he lives. I'm daydreaming again!
1. Holiday Inc is a registered business with the State of Washington. (Unfortunately, we can't report him for doing biz without a license.) Address same as above. Account opened Sept 1, 2001.
2. Pergunnar & Melody Westerdahl had a company registered as SCAN WEST from 1976-1986 at the same address. Given that they still live there now, Holiday.com is their company.
3. Holiday.com lists Ascern as their whois admin contact. Ascern is also registered to Gunnar's address as of 2000.
So, if H-R gets no satistfaction, we could at least report holiday.com (online forms) to the WA State Attorney's office. They can contact the company for us, but can't do much else unless they get enough complaints to decide to file a complaint themselves.
Anyone else find it noteworthy that holiday.com is "wholly owned by Nordic Holdings, Inc."? . . . (Gunnar=Nordic)
So we know who he is and where he lives. I'm daydreaming again!
They sloppily left up an old, unindexed, website. One that still has the address posted for all to see:paolo wrote:Very interesting. Where did you get the Washington address for holiday.com?
http://ascern.com/info/company/jobs/
You have to use the full link, because if you try to go in from ascern.com, it'll bop you to the holiday.com jobs page which has no contact info.
Wow debk! I am so impressed!
As a rider to this . . . but possibly wildly inaccurate, I don't know . . . when I found the reference to Nordic Holdings Inc. the other day, I did a little desultory searching and the only entries I could find that seemed to be of any interest referred to bankruptcy proceedings or debtors. However, when I went into the sites, there was reams of legal stuff which I couldn't fathom . . . and it was late! At the time I decided it probably wasn't the same organisation . . . but I'm beginning to wonder again now . . .
Anyway, the overall impression I get is of some very tricky customers indeed . . . and I am certainly very wary of contacting them, thereby giving them my e-mail address.
I am currently mainly watching the thread with great interest, waiting to see what transpires . . . and whether there is any way we can join forces to do anything useful here. If so I will be very happy to take part. I am also trying to find other ways of marketing my unsold weeks! I still feel there may be some connection with all of this despite what some of you say. Has anyone done any research on where holiday.com come in the main search engines with some simple searches? It really is such a good name isn't it . . . surely people must be stumbling across it.
Patia
As a rider to this . . . but possibly wildly inaccurate, I don't know . . . when I found the reference to Nordic Holdings Inc. the other day, I did a little desultory searching and the only entries I could find that seemed to be of any interest referred to bankruptcy proceedings or debtors. However, when I went into the sites, there was reams of legal stuff which I couldn't fathom . . . and it was late! At the time I decided it probably wasn't the same organisation . . . but I'm beginning to wonder again now . . .
Anyway, the overall impression I get is of some very tricky customers indeed . . . and I am certainly very wary of contacting them, thereby giving them my e-mail address.
I am currently mainly watching the thread with great interest, waiting to see what transpires . . . and whether there is any way we can join forces to do anything useful here. If so I will be very happy to take part. I am also trying to find other ways of marketing my unsold weeks! I still feel there may be some connection with all of this despite what some of you say. Has anyone done any research on where holiday.com come in the main search engines with some simple searches? It really is such a good name isn't it . . . surely people must be stumbling across it.
Patia
Oh, Deb, major bonus points to you!
As janskov points out, your IP address is typically included in the headers of any e-mail you send. This can work against you, but it can work for you too. Tansy, the e-mail they sent you could have our friend Gunnar's IP address in it!
If you're curious, view the e-mail's full headers, and PM them to me!
Not that it's as useful as it would have been before Debk's discovery -- but it's just nice to have all available information. Well done, Deb!
As janskov points out, your IP address is typically included in the headers of any e-mail you send. This can work against you, but it can work for you too. Tansy, the e-mail they sent you could have our friend Gunnar's IP address in it!
If you're curious, view the e-mail's full headers, and PM them to me!
Not that it's as useful as it would have been before Debk's discovery -- but it's just nice to have all available information. Well done, Deb!
Brooke
The relevance of a domain name will not in itself bring many more visitors. It's just a question of where in the rankings the site comes up. You can see for yourself by typing in variations on your location along with variations on your accommodation type.Has anyone done any research on where holiday.com come in the main search engines with some simple searches? It really is such a good name isn't it . . . surely people must be stumbling across it.
Incidentally the vacation rentals part of the site is not available right now, there is a message saying it is being upgraded. Coincidence or collapse?
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Thanks, guys. It helps that Gunnar left quite a trail out there so that it hasn't been difficult to follow.
Two more relevant points:
1. Nordic Holdings is a registered, incorporated Seattle business since 1994. Contact: Kenneth Hobbs. However, whois lists Gunnar's address for the contact. I assume Nordic Holdings is just a legal front for his other business... the domain doesn't even work... and last I checked, these attempts to shield yourself with bogus incorporations didn't work well in WA State. (Yes, Patia, the only thing I found yesterday about Nordic was as a debtor to some chapter 11 claims. Made my eyes cross, too.)
2. More importantly, I think their deferral of copyright questions to Japan is total hooey. (The Japanese "Copyright Agent for notice of claims of infringement" on the holiday.com site is the same as their whois registrar technical contact. Um, I doubt it?)
I recommend that all copyright infringement concerns, by individuals or H-R, be addressed to Per Gunnar H. Westerdal at the Bellevue address, above. "Holiday Inc." is a Washington State business (license number 602134837) and, as such, is governed by the laws of WA State. Japan has nothing to do with this.
I'm going to research how to file a legal claim online with the WA State Attorney's Office and, if it looks worthwhile, I'll post details. Some kind of coordinated campaign (perhaps, jointly with the yahoo group, which has about 1000 VR owners) to hit Gunnar with email requests demanding immediate removal of stolen listings, followed by complaints to the Attorney General's office, and perhaps a few waves of "follow up" phone calls to both Gunnar and Melody from around the world (timezones work in our favor here... 10am GMT=2am Seattle
) might cause them to rethink their strategy.
Or maybe not. But could be fun.
Two more relevant points:
1. Nordic Holdings is a registered, incorporated Seattle business since 1994. Contact: Kenneth Hobbs. However, whois lists Gunnar's address for the contact. I assume Nordic Holdings is just a legal front for his other business... the domain doesn't even work... and last I checked, these attempts to shield yourself with bogus incorporations didn't work well in WA State. (Yes, Patia, the only thing I found yesterday about Nordic was as a debtor to some chapter 11 claims. Made my eyes cross, too.)
2. More importantly, I think their deferral of copyright questions to Japan is total hooey. (The Japanese "Copyright Agent for notice of claims of infringement" on the holiday.com site is the same as their whois registrar technical contact. Um, I doubt it?)
I recommend that all copyright infringement concerns, by individuals or H-R, be addressed to Per Gunnar H. Westerdal at the Bellevue address, above. "Holiday Inc." is a Washington State business (license number 602134837) and, as such, is governed by the laws of WA State. Japan has nothing to do with this.
I'm going to research how to file a legal claim online with the WA State Attorney's Office and, if it looks worthwhile, I'll post details. Some kind of coordinated campaign (perhaps, jointly with the yahoo group, which has about 1000 VR owners) to hit Gunnar with email requests demanding immediate removal of stolen listings, followed by complaints to the Attorney General's office, and perhaps a few waves of "follow up" phone calls to both Gunnar and Melody from around the world (timezones work in our favor here... 10am GMT=2am Seattle
) might cause them to rethink their strategy. Or maybe not. But could be fun.
-
ross
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:07 pm
- Location: 23,000 + properties in 70 countries.
- Contact:
At Holiday-rentals.com we are aware that a website called Holiday.com is pirating copyrighted information from us and other holiday rental sites and placing it on their site. We are doing everything we can to stop it. In fact lawyers in the US were instructed by us two months ago to serve a cease and desist against Holiday.com to try to have the site itself removed. This is a slow process and is on-going.
We do not know why they do what they do, we only know that they do not have our permission to do it. We do not know why the rates that our advertisers have entered on our site are often changed; but not always. We have no clue as to why they contact some of our advertisers, but not all. It appears as if they sometimes send what appear to be enquiries to our customers, but we do not know if these are genuine or bogus.
We have made repeated attempts to contact the people listed as owners of the site, which is hosted in the United States, and claims to be owned by people in Japan. None of the addresses in the United States and Japan are valid. None of the telephone numbers they have submitted appear to be valid, although we do not know if the numbers existed at one time and were later cancelled.
We can only assume that people who violate international copyright laws, change copyrighted information without permission, and then seek to gather information about our customers through covert means have goals that do not meet ethical standards. There is no human being at Holiday.com available to speak to us. No one has responded to our repeated efforts to get them to stop stealing our customers' information.
Please do not respond to them in any way. Do not respond to their enquiry forms; we know of no valid enquiry that has been received by others. Please do not use your primary email address to request that they take your advertisement down—you are at risk of giving them personal information that they do not have and may want desperately. We are taking every step available to us under UK and US law to stop them, but the process is slow.
All advertisers should be assured that nothing Holiday.com is doing will detract from legitimate enquiries generated for their properties via Holiday-Rentals.com and that the season continues to be a strong one for our advertisers.
Thank you to Paolo and all of the participants of this thread on LayMyHat for their concern, support and continued help in tracking down what Holiday.com are doing and for their ideas in stopping any further damage being done to the industry. In the meantime, if you receive correspondence from Holiday.com, we would appreciate it if you could forward it to me for our files. Perhaps it will be the one thing which finally lets us put a stop to this nonsense.
We do not know why they do what they do, we only know that they do not have our permission to do it. We do not know why the rates that our advertisers have entered on our site are often changed; but not always. We have no clue as to why they contact some of our advertisers, but not all. It appears as if they sometimes send what appear to be enquiries to our customers, but we do not know if these are genuine or bogus.
We have made repeated attempts to contact the people listed as owners of the site, which is hosted in the United States, and claims to be owned by people in Japan. None of the addresses in the United States and Japan are valid. None of the telephone numbers they have submitted appear to be valid, although we do not know if the numbers existed at one time and were later cancelled.
We can only assume that people who violate international copyright laws, change copyrighted information without permission, and then seek to gather information about our customers through covert means have goals that do not meet ethical standards. There is no human being at Holiday.com available to speak to us. No one has responded to our repeated efforts to get them to stop stealing our customers' information.
Please do not respond to them in any way. Do not respond to their enquiry forms; we know of no valid enquiry that has been received by others. Please do not use your primary email address to request that they take your advertisement down—you are at risk of giving them personal information that they do not have and may want desperately. We are taking every step available to us under UK and US law to stop them, but the process is slow.
All advertisers should be assured that nothing Holiday.com is doing will detract from legitimate enquiries generated for their properties via Holiday-Rentals.com and that the season continues to be a strong one for our advertisers.
Thank you to Paolo and all of the participants of this thread on LayMyHat for their concern, support and continued help in tracking down what Holiday.com are doing and for their ideas in stopping any further damage being done to the industry. In the meantime, if you receive correspondence from Holiday.com, we would appreciate it if you could forward it to me for our files. Perhaps it will be the one thing which finally lets us put a stop to this nonsense.
Ross McGowan
www.Holiday-Rentals.co.uk
ross@holiday-rentals.com
Tel +44 (0)20 8743 5577
Fax +44 (0)20 8740 3863
www.Holiday-Rentals.co.uk
ross@holiday-rentals.com
Tel +44 (0)20 8743 5577
Fax +44 (0)20 8740 3863