Hi All,
I need some outside perspectives on this issue we've been having lately.
Last year we started with a new cleaner, who was somewhat expensive but did a good job (the house was always sparkling when we arrived, and we had good reviews from customers).
The cleaner's husband is a handyman and did some odd jobs for us -- he also was somewhat expensive, but nothing to shout about.
We paid her a deposit at the end of last year for this coming year, and my Mother paid her for work through the second week of July (next week) when she was at the house in May.
We have since heard that she is not doing a good job at all with the cleaning -- our property manager took photos for documentation when she visited just before a client was due to arrive, and we have heard from guests that the house was "not clean, although not exactly dirty." She is apparently making the beds and doing a tidy up, but not a full cleaning.
Our cleaner also contacted us last week to say that she couldn't find the vacuum -- and later found it in the same spot we always keep it, after we told her where to look. This told us that she hasn't been vacuuming the house at all! Then she had the nerve to ask us to pay her a deposit again for next season -- before this season is even over! Further, she said that a very simple job that her husband did for us would cost E500.
Needless to say, we fired her (and him!) -- asked her to leave her keys in the house kitchen after her last week and also asked her to leave the soiled linen (which she would usually take to the laundromat) in the bathroom, for our property manager to pick up.
We just got an e-mail from our property manager -- the beds had been made with new linen, but the floors were not clean, the bathrooms were not clean, and the keys and linen were nowhere to be found.
What's your take on this? I feel very, very uneasy with the fact that the cleaner didn't leave the keys at the house. We've recently gotten the feeling that the cleaner needs money for some reason and sees us as an endless source of it, inventing reasons to extract it from us and even flat-out asking for a loan (once, last winter; we refused).
I'm unsure what to do next, though! Do we write her a strongly-worded letter? Do we need to visit in person to make sure we get the keys from her (the house is in France, we're in the US)? Do we just ask our property manager (who we do trust) to supervise changing the locks?
This is all compounded by the fact that it's the height of the season, the house is fully booked for months to come, and we are trying very hard not to let this interfere with our guests' vacations! But it apparently already has -- we are so distraught at the thought that we have been one of those horrible gites Tansy has experience with! Arriving at your vacation destination and having to vacuum is just not acceptable, and we're so ashamed to think that our clients may have (well, almost certainly have) had to do this!
I'm hoping to get some advice/reassurance/reality checks from everyone!
Thanks.
Oh, Dear -- Problems with Housekeeper
Vrooje,
I am not sure you can do this by remote control. If you can I would get over there to deal with this personally. I appreciate this would cost a lot of money so may not be an option.
As a minimum I would have the locks changed immediately and appoint a new cleaner. No point asking for the keys back as she may have made a copy of them, and needing money may relieve you of some of your property.
I would send a letter to her making it clear why you have terminated her services. Forget about any recoveries from the old cleaner it wont be worth the hassle.
I would also send an letter of apology to all guests this year explaining at a high level the situation and reassuring your commitment to a high level of service.
Chin up ... this is life ... if it was too easy it would be boring
Lastly, I would recommend quickly double checking your facts and assumptions. If you come to the same conclusions you need to move quickly to resolve this comprehensively.
I am not sure you can do this by remote control. If you can I would get over there to deal with this personally. I appreciate this would cost a lot of money so may not be an option.
As a minimum I would have the locks changed immediately and appoint a new cleaner. No point asking for the keys back as she may have made a copy of them, and needing money may relieve you of some of your property.
I would send a letter to her making it clear why you have terminated her services. Forget about any recoveries from the old cleaner it wont be worth the hassle.
I would also send an letter of apology to all guests this year explaining at a high level the situation and reassuring your commitment to a high level of service.
Chin up ... this is life ... if it was too easy it would be boring
Lastly, I would recommend quickly double checking your facts and assumptions. If you come to the same conclusions you need to move quickly to resolve this comprehensively.
I agree with Clexane, although I don't think there would be any harm in contacting her and asking where the keys are etc. (you don't have to follow through, but the fact you follow it up may make her rethink).
Is your property manager in a position to help, rather than you going out there? You could always threaten to send the cleaner the bill for changing the locks, although obviously you want to tread carefully.
Is your property manager in a position to help, rather than you going out there? You could always threaten to send the cleaner the bill for changing the locks, although obviously you want to tread carefully.
Brooke,
"I would send a letter to her making it clear why you have terminated her services" - I wouldn't write anything. French labour laws are indulgent towards the employee & I wouldn't want to give her any written element. (Verbal pleadings are little more than useless in France without written proof.)
The last thing you want is a legal action.
Provided you can get the locks changed & a new cleaner hired (never pay them in advance - can't your agent do this each week?), I don't see what your presence will add. You don't want
confrontation with the cleaner - as a non-resident owner you are vulnerable.
Don't ever get a handy man to do a job without a quote.
I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but other members might like to know that cleaners are notorious in France for "denouncing" their employers - I have seen cases where they contacted the tax authorities & accused the employer of not declaring the rental income. True or not, such a denunciation is very unpleasant. Undeclared employees have also been known to claim social security & unfair dismissal: all employees in France are deemed to have a work contract, even if the agreement is only oral, so anyone employing staff without paying social security contributions is in a delicate position.
This won't be your case, Brooke, but given the rupture with your cleaner I wouldn't do anything to revive the relationship.
"I would send a letter to her making it clear why you have terminated her services" - I wouldn't write anything. French labour laws are indulgent towards the employee & I wouldn't want to give her any written element. (Verbal pleadings are little more than useless in France without written proof.)
The last thing you want is a legal action.
Provided you can get the locks changed & a new cleaner hired (never pay them in advance - can't your agent do this each week?), I don't see what your presence will add. You don't want
confrontation with the cleaner - as a non-resident owner you are vulnerable.
Don't ever get a handy man to do a job without a quote.
I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but other members might like to know that cleaners are notorious in France for "denouncing" their employers - I have seen cases where they contacted the tax authorities & accused the employer of not declaring the rental income. True or not, such a denunciation is very unpleasant. Undeclared employees have also been known to claim social security & unfair dismissal: all employees in France are deemed to have a work contract, even if the agreement is only oral, so anyone employing staff without paying social security contributions is in a delicate position.
This won't be your case, Brooke, but given the rupture with your cleaner I wouldn't do anything to revive the relationship.
Best,
Alexia.
Alexia.
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Brooke,
Unfortunately this is not an uncommon event for absent landlords the world over.
Alexia has it right. Any written notice will give your cleaner the evidence she needs to prove that there is an employment contract. French employment law would then automatically give her rights against you, rights which you did not contemplate when originally using her services.
Your property manager should be able to deal with your problem personally and informally - a simple "don't come back" might suffice. Change all locks and find a replacement cleaner, paid on a weekly basis. More work for your property manager, more expense for you but worth it in the long run.
I very much hope you find a satisfactory and speedy resolution to this unpleasant problem.
Regards
Alan
Unfortunately this is not an uncommon event for absent landlords the world over.
Alexia has it right. Any written notice will give your cleaner the evidence she needs to prove that there is an employment contract. French employment law would then automatically give her rights against you, rights which you did not contemplate when originally using her services.
Your property manager should be able to deal with your problem personally and informally - a simple "don't come back" might suffice. Change all locks and find a replacement cleaner, paid on a weekly basis. More work for your property manager, more expense for you but worth it in the long run.
I very much hope you find a satisfactory and speedy resolution to this unpleasant problem.
Regards
Alan
Nothing helpful to add as we live on site but I just wanted to add my support to the thread - I hate it when you treat someone well and then they try to take advantage. Good luck with sorting things out - if I was a guest I would appreciate a little note left at the venue to explain that there have been problems and that they should contact your manager if they are not happy and you will put all right for them.
No written notice, locks changed immediately, previous renters notified -- got it.
We started this relationship before I knew anything about "au noir" workers, and they were a reference from someone we know and trust in the area, so we (stupidly) assumed everything they were doing was above board. Apparently not.
Don't worry, we didn't pay the E500 to the handyman! My mother, who is still learning French, managed to stutter the words "trop cher!" and they quickly offered a lower price (which was yet another clue -- if the price was fair to begin with, they wouldn't have bargained).
Thank you all for your advice and support! I will keep everyone updated. Hopefully, though, we will change the locks and that will be the end of it.
We started this relationship before I knew anything about "au noir" workers, and they were a reference from someone we know and trust in the area, so we (stupidly) assumed everything they were doing was above board. Apparently not.
Don't worry, we didn't pay the E500 to the handyman! My mother, who is still learning French, managed to stutter the words "trop cher!" and they quickly offered a lower price (which was yet another clue -- if the price was fair to begin with, they wouldn't have bargained).
Thank you all for your advice and support! I will keep everyone updated. Hopefully, though, we will change the locks and that will be the end of it.
Brooke
Good luck! It must be really difficult being soooo far away!!At least you have a good manager! Let's hope the change of locks does the trick and that the guests haven't been inconvenienced- bet you write a really nice letter to them 
www.thepetitmanoir.com
www.thepetitmanoir.com
Do be careful Brooke...what Alan & Alexia have said I cannot emphasise enough...the new Prime Minister is stamping on Travail Noir...you MUST be paying cheque Emploi and declare taxes etc....if you have folk on the black working and they have an accident in your house you are the one that has the full liability including all the medical bills etc etc.
Do not admit you were paying this lady black money by putting anything in writing...if it were me I would get your manager to do some of the dealing with this cleaner...it sounds to me as if she will keep turning up especially if she has been paid already...the French they say are the worlds best shoppers and we are not talking spending money!
I think you need to get someone to go and see her and find out what her grief is and play it gently...sacking someone our style here in France can backfire - does your manager not speak French? This is time for diplomatic extraction of the keys and continuation of Entente cordiale.
I'm not trying to worry you - but it is all designed here for the worker...Vive La Republique but lets have an unemployment problem because entrepreneurs are not encouraged is part of the problem!
Get someone to go and see her - the person that recommended her should be a likely candidate if your manager won't...don't leave her to turn up and find the locks changed - there could be a scene and in front of your guests doesn't look too good.
Good luck & let us know the outcome...
Do not admit you were paying this lady black money by putting anything in writing...if it were me I would get your manager to do some of the dealing with this cleaner...it sounds to me as if she will keep turning up especially if she has been paid already...the French they say are the worlds best shoppers and we are not talking spending money!
I think you need to get someone to go and see her and find out what her grief is and play it gently...sacking someone our style here in France can backfire - does your manager not speak French? This is time for diplomatic extraction of the keys and continuation of Entente cordiale.
I'm not trying to worry you - but it is all designed here for the worker...Vive La Republique but lets have an unemployment problem because entrepreneurs are not encouraged is part of the problem!
Get someone to go and see her - the person that recommended her should be a likely candidate if your manager won't...don't leave her to turn up and find the locks changed - there could be a scene and in front of your guests doesn't look too good.
Good luck & let us know the outcome...
Keep in mind that if you are paying somebody black and you are caught they get into as much if not more trouble than you. It is unlikely the person involved will be the problem as much as a third party such as an unhappy neighbour.
Keep this in mind when getting the property manager or other involved - you need to really trust them.
Keep this in mind when getting the property manager or other involved - you need to really trust them.
Our property manager has already offered to speak to her... Tansy, I think your suggestion of asking the friend who referred us to her to do it instead is a great one. Unfortunately, that person is on vacation for another week...
In the meantime, I had a message yesterday when I got home from the cleaner, which was at least a full minute long. The trouble is that she was mumbling and speaking uncharacteristically fast French, so all I caught was the first part of her message "Following up on our conversation on Friday, I don't think I understood what you were saying ...", then what sounded like a bunch of dates and numbers, then "please would you and your mother call me tomorrow between 3 and 4 pm" (gee, no problem as 3 pm in France is 6 am where my Mother is).
I told my Mom that she absolutely needed to call one of the people we know in Semur who can translate for us, because I don't want a mis-translation from me to muck things up.
So we (me, Mom, and translator) are going to call her in about an hour -- though I have no idea what will be said. I think the cleaner may try to ask for the weekly cleaning fee until September, as I suspect the middle of her message may have been detailing how we agreed that we'd work with each other for the full season. That is certainly not going to happen, but we will try to find a delicate way of telling her this -- rather than the "you did a shoddy job for the last several months and now you want to be paid for no job at all? Ridiculous!" comment that would be on the tip of my tongue.
It's very good to know that she would get into trouble as well for all this "au noir" stuff. Of course we're the idiots for doing it in the first place (at least, for not changing things as soon as we learned that it's illegal)!
In the meantime, I had a message yesterday when I got home from the cleaner, which was at least a full minute long. The trouble is that she was mumbling and speaking uncharacteristically fast French, so all I caught was the first part of her message "Following up on our conversation on Friday, I don't think I understood what you were saying ...", then what sounded like a bunch of dates and numbers, then "please would you and your mother call me tomorrow between 3 and 4 pm" (gee, no problem as 3 pm in France is 6 am where my Mother is).
I told my Mom that she absolutely needed to call one of the people we know in Semur who can translate for us, because I don't want a mis-translation from me to muck things up.
So we (me, Mom, and translator) are going to call her in about an hour -- though I have no idea what will be said. I think the cleaner may try to ask for the weekly cleaning fee until September, as I suspect the middle of her message may have been detailing how we agreed that we'd work with each other for the full season. That is certainly not going to happen, but we will try to find a delicate way of telling her this -- rather than the "you did a shoddy job for the last several months and now you want to be paid for no job at all? Ridiculous!" comment that would be on the tip of my tongue.
It's very good to know that she would get into trouble as well for all this "au noir" stuff. Of course we're the idiots for doing it in the first place (at least, for not changing things as soon as we learned that it's illegal)!
Brooke
News!
With the help of a freelance translator we know in the area, it looks like this issue is solved. The cleaner had it in her head that we owed her for two weeks and no amount of argument or presenting bookkeeping could change her mind. In the end we settled on one week's payment, to be paid after she leaves the keys and linens in the house store room.
Of course even if she still does all this, we are still changing all the locks!
Do you think we could be harmed by sending her a check, or should we have our property manager visit her and pay cash?
Thank you to everyone for your help! Lesson learned -- and perhaps by posting it someone else's potential problem with a house cleaner or any other under-the-table worker will be averted.
Of course even if she still does all this, we are still changing all the locks!
Do you think we could be harmed by sending her a check, or should we have our property manager visit her and pay cash?
Thank you to everyone for your help! Lesson learned -- and perhaps by posting it someone else's potential problem with a house cleaner or any other under-the-table worker will be averted.
Brooke
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Alan,
I figured cash was the best option -- just wanted to double-check.
The keys and linen were returned to the house, and we have changed the locks. I've just heard back from the new cleaners that the house was immaculate at changeover yesterday So it looks like a relatively happy ending.
Cheers!
I figured cash was the best option -- just wanted to double-check.
The keys and linen were returned to the house, and we have changed the locks. I've just heard back from the new cleaners that the house was immaculate at changeover yesterday So it looks like a relatively happy ending.
Cheers!
Brooke