Is anyone else concerned about the tax changes?

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Windy
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Post by Windy »

Just received this load of old b@ll@cks via my MP

Do you know that she gets paid £133,255 a year to write guff like this?

It makes Sir Fred Goodwin look like good value!
Department for Culture, Media and Sport
The Rt Hon Margaret Hodge MBE MP
Minister for Culture and Tourism
2-4 Cockspur Street
London SW1Y 5DH

Tel 020 7211 6200
Fax 020 7211 6249 w
ww.culture.gov.uk

Your Ref:
Our Ref: CMS 1288U7/CAG

6th December 2009

The Rt Hon Michael Jack MP House of Commons London, SW1A 0AA


Thank you for your letter of November 17th 2009 enclosing an email from your constituent about furnished holiday lettings.

I understand that this issue is one of the industry's biggest anxieties at this time, and I am working hard on the industry's behalf. I had a constructive meeting very recently with the Treasury Minister responsible to set out the industry's concerns about the potential impact of rule-changes to furnished holiday lettings.

The Treasury and HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) have agreed to meet with senior members of the industry prior to the Pre-Budget Report to discuss the proposals in more detail. The Treasury and HMRC will publish their assessment of the impact simultaneously with draft legislation, regulations and guidelines at the Pre-Budget Report. Afterward, HMRC will begin a twelve-week consultation, and I would encourage your constituent to contribute his views in the consultation process.

My officials replied to Mr ****'s email of November 10th on my behalf on November 23rd. (No they didn't at least not with anything meaningful)

I will continue to monitor this closely.

Yours ever

Margaret Hodge
As My MP points out the content is a bit out of date (although this reply only made it to my house today)
harcourtv57
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Post by harcourtv57 »

Does anyone know if these changes alter the length of time that you can book guests into your accommodation? Under the existing FHL rules there is a stipulation that to qualify for the tax allowances you cannot let to one party for more than 28 days (etc etc, won't quote the whole thing).

We have a friend who runs a restaurant locally and is trying to rent a large house for his extended family for 6 weeks in the summer, so that they can all be together and have a break but he can still be on hand for any issues at the restaurant. Several people have already told him that they can't take bookings for more than a month - surely once the new regs come in (if they do which is looking increasingly likely) then this won't apply? As we won't then be running a business but purely offering accommodation??! :?
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Post by harcourtv57 »

For info also, forwarded from a friend with holiday accommodation in Cornwall.

I have been asked to forward the following information to all members regarding the taxation changes for Furnished Holiday Lettings which will come into force from 6th April 2010, here are two links which may be of some help to members and property owners.

In essence, holiday letting will no longer be regarded as a trading business but will be considered as property investment - resulting in the withdrawal of some allowances and the flexibility of offsetting losses against trading profits elsewhere. There will also be capital gains tax changes and loss of entrepreneur's relief.

There is a 10 Downing Street e.petition against the changes (which is being promoted via South West Tourism) - sign up to this until 11th January 2010.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/holidaylets/

There is also another link via South West Tourism, which sets out an appraisal from the Tourism Alliance.

http://www.swtourism.org.uk/news/q/date ... es-update/

We will also we able to discuss this and other matters at the Members Meeting on Wednesday 27th January 2010 at the Metropole Hotel from 7.30pm.


Padstow Tourist Information Centre / Padstow Area Tourism Business Forum (PATBF) (PATA LTD)

The Red Brick Building, North Quay, Padstow, Cornwall, PL28 8AF Tel: 01841 533 449, Fax: 01841 532 356 Discover more at www.padstowlive.com

[/quote]
alex_bisgrove
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Post by alex_bisgrove »

last infor I have seen from HMRC on the tax impact of this change, dated 9th December
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/withdraw ... s-3760.pdf
Nightowl
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Post by Nightowl »

thanks for the info. The tourism Alliance paper sets out the financial implications very clearly.
Nightowl
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backwards......
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greenbarn
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Post by greenbarn »

FWIW this is a post I made on another forum.

I've also received a summary produced by an accountancy firm on behalf of Cumbria Tourism; I don't propose to post it here, but if anyone is interested PM me and I'll send you a copy.
As various somnolent bodies associated with the self catering industry gradually wipe the sleep from their eyes (and please note this comment is not aimed at the likes of EASCO and those who've been active from the incept of the FHL Tax changes) there seems to be a little more information crawling out on the effects of the proposal for FHL Tax changes, if indeed these become law.

I am neither accountant nor lawyer, and most definitely not a politician, so anything I say may be completely misguided, as it is merely gleaned from reading endless gobbledygook from HMRC, and some pithier information from some advisory and accountancy bodies. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who has more facts on anything that follows.

A summary of the change seems to be that FHL will not be seen as a trading business (whatever that means in HMRC speak) but treated in the same manner as property investment. There will be significant impact on Inheritance Tax (IHT) and Capital Gains Tax (CGT), although presumably they only have an effect if you are looking to sell your properties, or die.

The changes affecting the running of the business are perhaps more relevant, and as far as I can work out we can all wave goodbye to capital allowances for equipment, furniture etc and instead we'll get a Wear and Tear allowance of 10% of income. That may or may not be a significant change, but it suggests that any significant capital items should, if funds allow, be purchased before 6th April 2010.

Those seeking to start up in the business are apparently going to be hit hard by the changes; we all know that starting from scratch is a hugely expensive undertaking, with a lot of up front expenditure to ensure the building meets requirements, fittings and furnishing. So we may well see considerably less people going into the business in the future.

An "interesting" change is that losses from running the business will no longer be able to be offset against other income. Now this may not necessarily be a bad thing (ducks). Those of us who take the business seriously are not looking to make a loss on an ongoing basis (losses are likely in the first couple of years, but these can be rolled forward - I think - to offset profits in subsequent years.) Indeed, for some of us it is our sole income. The owners who will be hit hardest by this change are those who have a property that they choose to let as FHL purely because of the current tax breaks; ie they seek to make a trading loss that they can offset against their other income, whilst maintaining subsidised ownership of a second home or investment property - although "investment" and "property" don't sit as comfortably together as was the case. One way they achieve this is to let the property and unrealistically low rates; enough to cover some outgoings, but not to make a profit. Providing a FHL in this manner seriously distorts the market, and affects the expectations of potential holidaymakers, adding to the misconception that self catering is all about putting up with cheap tat and indifference.

The tax changes could take a lot of those properties off the FHL rental market, and there are obvious potential benefits to the rest of us who do take the business seriously. However, it will reduce the choice for Customers, and it would be unfortunate if it also resulted in the loss of properties with caring owners if their margins no longer seemed worth the hassle of offering a FHL, and decided to go down the very much simpler route of 6 month lets instead.

One final thought - does anyone know if the changes would affect the existing rules on the maximum period (31 days?) that a FHL can be rented to the same person?

I've obviously generalised in the above, my assumptions may be wrong, but I offer it up as food for thought!
Further, this is the response I received from Jenni Rich, who is the co-ordinator at HMRC for any comments and feedback.
Her email address, which is given incorrectly on the Government papers, is jenni.rich@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk
Thank you for your email below, I appreciate you taking the time to write to me.

I note your concerns about FHL properties that are restricted in their use because of planning regulations. I also note your concerns that FHL will be treated as a property letting business and not a trading business.

The separation of property income from trading income is a long established principle of UK tax law. The distinction can in some cases be narrow and will depend on a number of factors, but in the past the courts have decided that in general, letting furnished accommodation (including holiday accommodation) is a property business.

Characterising a business as a property business does not imply that the income derived from it is "passive". I accept that FHL business owners have to put considerable investment and effort into setting up and running their businesses. The mere fact that an owner of FHL business will spend a lot of time on his/her property business, perhaps even all their working time, does not convert rental income into trading income. I think it is common ground that those commercially letting furnished holiday accommodation have a genuine business activity, but not all business activity is trading.

On the 9 December HMRC published guidance about the tax treatment of those who let furnished holiday accommodation following the withdrawal of the FHL rules. The guidance explains in further detail the difference between a property business and a trading business. This guidance can be found on our website at www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/withdrawing-let ... s-3760.pdf.

Regards

Jenni Rich
Policy Advisor (Trading and Property Income Team)
CT&VAT
HMRC
Tel. 020 7147 0686
100 Parliament Street, London, SW1A 2BQ
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Windy
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Post by Windy »

Now if we are not "trading" and being classed as in the "property rental" game would it be fair to say that we would not have to charge VAT on our rentals if we exceed the VAT threshold.

"Normally, property rental is exempt from VAT. However, landlords may be able to waive this exemption and opt to tax a property. Doing so enables the landlord to reclaim VAT on certain expenditure related to that property."

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/ ... ectors.htm

I think I've just found the silver lining in the FHL repeal cloud :-) :-)
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FHL Repeal

Post by allanspence »

Sorry to advise that repeal of FHL rules does not alter VAT treatment on our self catering income - I had investigated this point in the hope that it would but there was no silver lining to be found - the following is a quote from www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/withdrawing-let ... s-3760.pdf
"The repeal does not affect the VAT treatment. FHL businesses will still need to charge VAT at the standard rate if its income is above the VAT registration threshold."

Allan Spence
www.drumnadrochit-lodges.com
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Windy
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Post by Windy »

They seem to want to have their cake and eat it don't they !
DivineMrsM
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And next up ... council tax...

Post by DivineMrsM »

Them that know best are now considering doubling (or worse) the council tax that we pay on our FHLs :x

http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/resour ... 2-56-2070/
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Wonkeye
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Is anyone else concerned about the tax changes?

Post by Wonkeye »

As reported by the Telegraph (Government considers doubling council tax on second homes): "Other plans being considered by Mr Denham after they were put forward by councils include increasing the tax on chewing gum, compelling owners of empty businesses to consider turning their buildings into community centres, fining car drivers if anyone in their vehicle throws something from a window; and empowering councils to ban plastic bags."
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Windy
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Post by Windy »

Am I right in assuming that if FHL gets repealed we are forced into the claim 10% of gross rental as expenses rather than what you actually incur thing?
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apexblue
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Post by apexblue »

Them that know best are now considering doubling (or worse) the council tax that we pay on our FHLs
We pay business rates on our cottages saving 25% (and just missed out saving 50%).
It is better to remain quiet and have one think you are stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....

The biggest mistake we make in life is thinking we have time.
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Wonkeye
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Is anyone else concerned about the tax changes?

Post by Wonkeye »

DivineMrsM:
Them that know best are now considering doubling (or worse) the council tax that we pay on our FHLs
apexblue:
We pay business rates on our cottages saving 25% (and just missed out saving 50%).
Squirrel:
Also from 2010 my "business" has been re-valued for business rates by the Valuation Office; the new rateable value shows a 48% increase!! How do they square this? Should it be rates or council tax??
This is all precisely why we have been hanging on, keeping below the business rate threshold. You never know if/when "them that know best" are going to capriciously put up your rateable value, or even scrap the entire 50%, 25%, or whatever, relief system. Do you????? Of course, if council taxes ARE doubled/tripled, this changes it all again.
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Post by harcourtv57 »

Apologies if this link has already been posted but just come across it whilst looking for the latest info

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/re ... -05250.pdf
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