If you are registered with the Prefecture or Gîtes de France and are not registered with the Chambre de Commerce you will find that the standard forms you have received are totally inapplicable.
Gîtes de France informs me that they will be receiving the right forms shortly, which will then be distributed to all owners.
Our tax officer has no idea what the latest legislation is, nor any idea what the new limit is for microbic.
WARNING: tax returns
There is no reason why Clévacances should know about it, Dominique, as they are not concerned. Only properties registered with Gîtes de France or with the Préfecture(= meublée de tourisme) will get the 71% abattement & the 80K seuil.
Unless, of course, Clévacances is the agency which has done the report for the Prefecture (enabling a meublée de tourisme classification) : in this case it will, indeed, know about the form - and it will send it out.
I know about the supplementary forms because I had a tremendous shock when I read the tax return form, which triggered a call to the local tax ofice (giving me another shock) and then started me off on a trail of research.
We now have the answer to the question "how will the tax authorities know who is really registered or not?" - anyone who is properly registered will receive a form which will, no doubt, be nominative. This form has to be sent with the normal return.
Bets on which forum has this news first?
Unless, of course, Clévacances is the agency which has done the report for the Prefecture (enabling a meublée de tourisme classification) : in this case it will, indeed, know about the form - and it will send it out.
I know about the supplementary forms because I had a tremendous shock when I read the tax return form, which triggered a call to the local tax ofice (giving me another shock) and then started me off on a trail of research.
We now have the answer to the question "how will the tax authorities know who is really registered or not?" - anyone who is properly registered will receive a form which will, no doubt, be nominative. This form has to be sent with the normal return.
Bets on which forum has this news first?
Do you have to send in proof of this with your tax return olive? There are going to be some miserable gîte owners if they suddenly discover they can't continue with the previous abattement and seuil that they benefitted from when they send in their tax return.olive wrote:There is no reason why Clévacances should know about it, Dominique, as they are not concerned. Only properties registered with Gîtes de France or with the Préfecture(= meublée de tourisme) will get the 71% abattement & the 80K seuil.
Logically, LV, only those owners (LMNP) registered in 2009 with GdeF or the Préfecture (as meublées de tourisme) will receive the NOMINATIVE form allowing the magic 71%, 80K formula. Everybody else will just have the standard tax form (which we have all received) with only one box to fill in, giving them 50% abattement on max revenue of 32K.
The form itself is the proof. The form is provided by the agency responsable for the initial inscription. The tax office doesn't have to check anything. if the contribuable isn't registered there is no way s/he could have the form. (Short of forgery, but that is not advisable.)
I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the standard form, since it gives no indication that the recent changes to LMNP have been applied! Nor does it give any indication that a special form is to be filled in.
Our local Préfecture, btw, knows nothing about it - but that's understandable, since it is the agency dealing with the inscriptions (in our case, GdeF) which sends out the forms, not the Prefecture.
The form itself is the proof. The form is provided by the agency responsable for the initial inscription. The tax office doesn't have to check anything. if the contribuable isn't registered there is no way s/he could have the form. (Short of forgery, but that is not advisable.)
I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the standard form, since it gives no indication that the recent changes to LMNP have been applied! Nor does it give any indication that a special form is to be filled in.
Our local Préfecture, btw, knows nothing about it - but that's understandable, since it is the agency dealing with the inscriptions (in our case, GdeF) which sends out the forms, not the Prefecture.
-
Normandy Cow
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
- Location: Normandy
- Contact:
All the above is gobbledegook to us as our UK based French accountant deals with our taxes, so I contacted him to ask about whether I needed to submit that* form to my local mairie and this is his reply:
Arghh! help!
*Not even sure whether you guys are even discussing the same form - the one I mean is the one that was mentioned in another thread which said all gites had to be registered with their mairie by June this yearYou are registered at the local tax office via the P0 form under Location en Meuble Non Professionnelle – this is the correct method for your accounts.
Arghh! help!
So what are the rental owners who don't have the correct classification, and whose revenues exceed the 32k euro limit going to do if they are still registered as a micro-bic when they shouldn't be?olive wrote:Logically, LV, only those owners (LMNP) registered in 2009 with GdeF or the Préfecture (as meublées de tourisme) will receive the NOMINATIVE form allowing the magic 71%, 80K formula. Everybody else will just have the standard tax form (which we have all received) with only one box to fill in, giving them 50% abattement on max revenue of 32K.
"submit that* form to my local mairie" - the mairie??
I am referring solely to a tax return.
Tax returns are not submitted to the mairie but to the tax office.
"all gites had to be registered with their mairie by June this year" - this is a totally different issue, related to tourism. My concern is only a tax issue.
"So what are the rental owners who don't have the correct classification, and whose revenues exceed the 32k euro limit going to do if they are still registered as a micro-bic when they shouldn't be?"
I don't know what you mean by "registered", LV. Can you explain, please?
What is clear is that they will not be able to apply the microbic provisions if revenue exceeds 32K.
I am referring solely to a tax return.
Tax returns are not submitted to the mairie but to the tax office.
"all gites had to be registered with their mairie by June this year" - this is a totally different issue, related to tourism. My concern is only a tax issue.
"So what are the rental owners who don't have the correct classification, and whose revenues exceed the 32k euro limit going to do if they are still registered as a micro-bic when they shouldn't be?"
I don't know what you mean by "registered", LV. Can you explain, please?
What is clear is that they will not be able to apply the microbic provisions if revenue exceeds 32K.
Hi Olive
re: There is no reason why Clévacances should know about it, Dominique, as they are not concerned. Only properties registered with Gîtes de France or with the Préfecture(= meublée de tourisme) will get the 71% abattement & the 80K seuil.
Unless, of course, Clévacances is the agency which has done the report for the Prefecture (enabling a meublée de tourisme classification) : in this case it will, indeed, know about the form - and it will send it out.
Yes, Clévacances are the agency which does the visit for the Préfecture.
I know in Lyon it is taking ages to get the visit done and I wonder what happened to owners who have requested their registration and are still waiting. Will they get the abattement ???
This is not logical as the lady from Clévacances has told me you do not have to register with the Préfecture, but of course now you have to register with the Mairie even if you are already registered with the Préfecture.
Dominique
re: There is no reason why Clévacances should know about it, Dominique, as they are not concerned. Only properties registered with Gîtes de France or with the Préfecture(= meublée de tourisme) will get the 71% abattement & the 80K seuil.
Unless, of course, Clévacances is the agency which has done the report for the Prefecture (enabling a meublée de tourisme classification) : in this case it will, indeed, know about the form - and it will send it out.
Yes, Clévacances are the agency which does the visit for the Préfecture.
I know in Lyon it is taking ages to get the visit done and I wonder what happened to owners who have requested their registration and are still waiting. Will they get the abattement ???
This is not logical as the lady from Clévacances has told me you do not have to register with the Préfecture, but of course now you have to register with the Mairie even if you are already registered with the Préfecture.
Dominique
Yes, forget the registered bit, I meant that I wonder what taxes/action will be applied if the revenues are over the microbic limit?olive wrote: I don't know what you mean by "registered", LV. Can you explain, please?
What is clear is that they will not be able to apply the microbic provisions if revenue exceeds 32K.
And NC, I don't think it applies to you as you are in the réel régime rather than a microbic (going on your previous posts.)
"what taxes/action will be applied if the revenues are over the microbic limit? "
You'd have to be a bit of a dodo to use the microbic box to put in your income if it exceeds 32K. It is clear that this box only applies to income less than 32K. The tax authority would just tax you without applying the abattement.
"What happened to owners who have requested their registration and are still waiting. Will they get the abattement ??? "
No reason why they would. Either they are registered or they aren't.
"The lady from Clévacances has told me you do not have to register with the Préfecture" - this is true. You only "have to" register with the Prefecture if you want your property to be a meublée de tourisme.
You'd have to be a bit of a dodo to use the microbic box to put in your income if it exceeds 32K. It is clear that this box only applies to income less than 32K. The tax authority would just tax you without applying the abattement.
"What happened to owners who have requested their registration and are still waiting. Will they get the abattement ??? "
No reason why they would. Either they are registered or they aren't.
"The lady from Clévacances has told me you do not have to register with the Préfecture" - this is true. You only "have to" register with the Prefecture if you want your property to be a meublée de tourisme.
-
Normandy Cow
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am
- Location: Normandy
- Contact:
Thanks LV, and thinking about it, our turnover for the year is just over €20K, so we are nowhere near the €32K limit!la vache! wrote: And NC, I don't think it applies to you as you are in the réel régime rather than a microbic (going on your previous posts.)
(Sometimes it's really useful to be "low-grade"!
)
Oh well, you'd better call me a dodo then Olive as I've done exactly that and I'm not registered with Gites de France or the Prefecture or the Chambre de Commerce and haven't received any "special" forms either - just the same ones I get every year.olive wrote:"what taxes/action will be applied if the revenues are over the microbic limit? "
You'd have to be a bit of a dodo to use the microbic box to put in your income if it exceeds 32K. It is clear that this box only applies to income less than 32K. The tax authority would just tax you without applying the abattement.
Of course you haven't received any special forms, Richard!
You are not entitled to them.
You will be taxed according to your declaration on the standard forms because you are not entitled to the 80K/71% bracket.
Only those owners properly registered are (I am told) going to receive the forms, which give them the 80K/71% package and also give the tax authorities the proof of registration.
This seems perfectly logical.
If you read p12 of the Notice you will wil see a paragraph entitled "Régime des micro-entreprises" - it is not subtitled "professional" or "nonprofessional" - which clearly defines the criteria for micro-entreprises. (There is a mistake - an omission - in this paragraph but most taxpayers won't notice it and it doesn't affect your liability.)
It also clearly states that the limit of 32K applies to louers en meublée (& adds that this does not apply to owners properly registered).
Once you have established whether or not you fall into this category (and, apparently, you don't) you have the choice in section C of the declaration between micro-entreprise (line SNP) and régime réel (line SNY: locatiions meublées nonprofessionnelles).
You are not entitled to them.
You will be taxed according to your declaration on the standard forms because you are not entitled to the 80K/71% bracket.
Only those owners properly registered are (I am told) going to receive the forms, which give them the 80K/71% package and also give the tax authorities the proof of registration.
This seems perfectly logical.
If you read p12 of the Notice you will wil see a paragraph entitled "Régime des micro-entreprises" - it is not subtitled "professional" or "nonprofessional" - which clearly defines the criteria for micro-entreprises. (There is a mistake - an omission - in this paragraph but most taxpayers won't notice it and it doesn't affect your liability.)
It also clearly states that the limit of 32K applies to louers en meublée (& adds that this does not apply to owners properly registered).
Once you have established whether or not you fall into this category (and, apparently, you don't) you have the choice in section C of the declaration between micro-entreprise (line SNP) and régime réel (line SNY: locatiions meublées nonprofessionnelles).