For any investors out there interested in the hottest area of New York, I have a 16 acre parcel of vacant residential land on the North Fork of Long Island, on which you can build your dream rental home (quite a few of them actually!). I'll pay a $35,000 commission to any agent whose customer purchases the property, payable in cash at closing. You must be a licensed RE professional or attorney in the US to qualify for this finders fee (sorry, no exceptions, that's the law).
The website address is: www.eastcoastresidential.com
(Paolo, this is my personal property, but if you have a problem with it being vacant land for sale rather than a rental home, I apologize most profusely and please remove it, no offense taken.)
Invest in the North Fork of Long Island, New York
Invest in the North Fork of Long Island, New York
Waves from America
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Giddy Goat
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hey Paolo, how about it? This could be when our sheep comes in!
Last edited by Giddy Goat on Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
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Giddy Goat
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Sorry Paolo, Alexia's already used that gag! 
Joanna, your land looks wonderful, and a super opportunity, but I can't go-at alone.
PS: Now I've discovered how to use smilies and saddies, there'll be no stopping me. My facial muscles don't have the same mobility as humans ..
Joanna, your land looks wonderful, and a super opportunity, but I can't go-at alone.
PS: Now I've discovered how to use smilies and saddies, there'll be no stopping me. My facial muscles don't have the same mobility as humans ..
Last edited by Giddy Goat on Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
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- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
By my calculations, that means 6,453 euros would buy 15.947 acres in SW France (6.453 hectares being equivalent size of my parcel). Marcus, are you saying that you have no rights to build on your land ever, and that it can only be used as farmland, or why is land so cheap there? Even farmland here (no development rights) would cost tens of thousands of euros per hectare. My land has development rights intact, although planning permission needs to be sought for whatever building plan the owner has in mind, including subvision into smaller lots.Alan Knighting wrote:Marcus,
At 1,000€ a hectare I'll bet you would.
Alan
Waves from America
Ah, that explains everything. The Second Sheep was not one of the Three Wise Sheep, hence you wouldn't know that RE means Real Estate ....paolo wrote:That's quite a generous commission! How do I become an RE professional? Is that Religious Education? I was once in a nativity play if that counts. Second sheep.
However, sheepish experience may give you a positive advantage, so please don't be discouraged.Waves from America
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Joanna,
There are so many things which govern the value of land. Along with location, supply and demand is one of the biggest considerations.
Around here there is more than enough land for current use, i.e. agricultural, thus the theoretical value is low. On the other hand there’s not much to be had because the French just hang on to things – it’s the inheritance thing you know.
The value of land with planning permission is entirely different. It can be many, many times more. France has its own rather unique way of dealing with planning. The mayor of the commune is “the boss� when it comes to development, some are in favour and some are not and values reflect that.
An example of the extremes I give you the following. Immediately to the West of me is a small piece of land, perhaps half an acre. It is remote from the farmer who owns it, has no access to a public road and there is a restrictive covenant on it forbidding building. It is worth next to nothing. Immediately to the East of me is a similar piece of land with frontage and planning permission which recently sold for 20,000€.
At the end of the day everything has a value and that is what a purchaser is prepared to pay. It really is as simple as that.
Alan
There are so many things which govern the value of land. Along with location, supply and demand is one of the biggest considerations.
Around here there is more than enough land for current use, i.e. agricultural, thus the theoretical value is low. On the other hand there’s not much to be had because the French just hang on to things – it’s the inheritance thing you know.
The value of land with planning permission is entirely different. It can be many, many times more. France has its own rather unique way of dealing with planning. The mayor of the commune is “the boss� when it comes to development, some are in favour and some are not and values reflect that.
An example of the extremes I give you the following. Immediately to the West of me is a small piece of land, perhaps half an acre. It is remote from the farmer who owns it, has no access to a public road and there is a restrictive covenant on it forbidding building. It is worth next to nothing. Immediately to the East of me is a similar piece of land with frontage and planning permission which recently sold for 20,000€.
At the end of the day everything has a value and that is what a purchaser is prepared to pay. It really is as simple as that.
Alan
Alan,
You can always be relied upon to state the obvious
I think everyone here understands that market price is set by purchasers and that location is the most important factor, so let me rephrase the question, "Why does nobody want to buy land in the parts of SW France that are selling so cheaply?"
While I can appreciate that land in upstate New York sells at a fraction of the cost it would if within 2 hours of Manhattan (which we are), I don't think of France as a country with vast tracts of unpopulated land nowhere near civilisation or utilities. Am I wrong?
Also, if land were priced in a third world country at $1,000 a hectare, that would be unachievable, but I don't think of France as having a vastly different economy to the US or the UK and look at land prices there.
If people can't afford to buy or build a home where they are, they move don't they? This kind of demographic shift in population and investment occurred in the North of England recently, which has seen considerable gains in housing values whereas the South has been static or seen some troughs over the same period.
Assuming that Marcus's land is not located in the heart of an industrial district and that it is located in an area that has access to basic infrastructure (schools, post office, utilities, roads, airport etc. and not in that order of priority), why are young, first time buyers and baby boomer retirees not moving from areas where they are being outpriced, like Provence maybe, into these other, cheaper areas?
I'm just curious to understand why people are not buying this land to build houses because it seems so cheap.
You can always be relied upon to state the obvious
I think everyone here understands that market price is set by purchasers and that location is the most important factor, so let me rephrase the question, "Why does nobody want to buy land in the parts of SW France that are selling so cheaply?" While I can appreciate that land in upstate New York sells at a fraction of the cost it would if within 2 hours of Manhattan (which we are), I don't think of France as a country with vast tracts of unpopulated land nowhere near civilisation or utilities. Am I wrong?
Also, if land were priced in a third world country at $1,000 a hectare, that would be unachievable, but I don't think of France as having a vastly different economy to the US or the UK and look at land prices there.
If people can't afford to buy or build a home where they are, they move don't they? This kind of demographic shift in population and investment occurred in the North of England recently, which has seen considerable gains in housing values whereas the South has been static or seen some troughs over the same period.
Assuming that Marcus's land is not located in the heart of an industrial district and that it is located in an area that has access to basic infrastructure (schools, post office, utilities, roads, airport etc. and not in that order of priority), why are young, first time buyers and baby boomer retirees not moving from areas where they are being outpriced, like Provence maybe, into these other, cheaper areas?
I'm just curious to understand why people are not buying this land to build houses because it seems so cheap.
Waves from America
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Joanna,
If I have stated the obvious then no further questions are necessary.
In European terms France is a large country with large areas of relatively unpopulated land but they are all without exception in the heart of civilisation. People don't buy land at inflated prices to build homes where planning permission can not be obtained. Obvious, isn't it?
Alan
Should I thank you for that analysis or were you being amusing?You can always be relied upon to state the obvious
If I have stated the obvious then no further questions are necessary.
In European terms France is a large country with large areas of relatively unpopulated land but they are all without exception in the heart of civilisation. People don't buy land at inflated prices to build homes where planning permission can not be obtained. Obvious, isn't it?
Alan
Without wishing to state the obvious, planning permission is a permit to build a specific plan. One scheme may be approved where another would be denied. As we all know, Planning permission is a moveable feast, and guidelines can and do change from year to year according to the Town's Development Plan. This is a completely different issue from the owner's right to develop their vacant land, which is not subject to the whims of a particularly objectionable Mayor who will eventually leave Office anyway.
I don't know anything about Marcus's land, his Mayor or his Town's Development Plan, but I do know a lot about mine (We don't have a Mayor). I would agree that a considerable part of the value is the right to develop the land for use as residential housing, but it's certainly not everything on a parcel this size. What those development rights mean exactly is negotiable with the Town and in theory, you can pick a number between 1 and 64 houses. Alternatively, I can sell the development rights separately to the land. The going rate is currently somewhere around $45,000 per acre (2.41 hectares) and rising. Without development rights, I could still farm the land and have certain buildings on part of it, but the land itself could never be turned into a full blown housing development or shopping mall, even if the Town were positively begging me to do so. Those rights would be gone forever, either transferred to a developer who wanted to buy them from me to increase the permissable density on another parcel of land, or dedicated to the Town as preserved open space, purchased by a number of possible sources including a well funded land trust that levies a 2% tax on every sale in this area just for that purpose. As it is, I have done neither, the right to develop this land remains intact, available to the new owner to deal with as they see fit.
16 acres is also the perfect size for a boutique Vineyard and only last month a leading winemaker from Napa valley bought land here, which surprised everyone, so there are possibilities there, and vinyards have no use for development rights, so those can be sold at any time to pay for vines, winery, equipment etc.
<aside/...> In Manhattan, it is not uncommon for building owners to sell their Air Rights separately to the building, which is the space above the roof across which one's neighbor may have a view that they wish to secure in perpetuity. I'm told this is how Donald Trump made a lot of his money, trading Air Rights.<... /aside>
Getting back to my land, if this had planning permits in place as well as development rights, then the price would be considerably more than I'm currently asking, and possibly as much as double for a large housing development.
However, all of the above is beside the point, which is that as well as location, there are many more aspects to valuing undeveloped land than "with planning permission", or "without planning permission", but however you look at it, $1,000 per hectare is ridiculously cheap for anything in the civilized world that does not fall into the category of toxic dump.
That's less than 250 british pounds sterling per acre (the alt key for the pound sign doesn't work on this board sorry) which equates to 43,560 square ft of land for roughly the price of this week's family food shop. This is a joke. Someone would pay more than that just to be able to walk their dog. You're kidding me, right?
I don't know anything about Marcus's land, his Mayor or his Town's Development Plan, but I do know a lot about mine (We don't have a Mayor). I would agree that a considerable part of the value is the right to develop the land for use as residential housing, but it's certainly not everything on a parcel this size. What those development rights mean exactly is negotiable with the Town and in theory, you can pick a number between 1 and 64 houses. Alternatively, I can sell the development rights separately to the land. The going rate is currently somewhere around $45,000 per acre (2.41 hectares) and rising. Without development rights, I could still farm the land and have certain buildings on part of it, but the land itself could never be turned into a full blown housing development or shopping mall, even if the Town were positively begging me to do so. Those rights would be gone forever, either transferred to a developer who wanted to buy them from me to increase the permissable density on another parcel of land, or dedicated to the Town as preserved open space, purchased by a number of possible sources including a well funded land trust that levies a 2% tax on every sale in this area just for that purpose. As it is, I have done neither, the right to develop this land remains intact, available to the new owner to deal with as they see fit.
16 acres is also the perfect size for a boutique Vineyard and only last month a leading winemaker from Napa valley bought land here, which surprised everyone, so there are possibilities there, and vinyards have no use for development rights, so those can be sold at any time to pay for vines, winery, equipment etc.
<aside/...> In Manhattan, it is not uncommon for building owners to sell their Air Rights separately to the building, which is the space above the roof across which one's neighbor may have a view that they wish to secure in perpetuity. I'm told this is how Donald Trump made a lot of his money, trading Air Rights.<... /aside>
Getting back to my land, if this had planning permits in place as well as development rights, then the price would be considerably more than I'm currently asking, and possibly as much as double for a large housing development.
However, all of the above is beside the point, which is that as well as location, there are many more aspects to valuing undeveloped land than "with planning permission", or "without planning permission", but however you look at it, $1,000 per hectare is ridiculously cheap for anything in the civilized world that does not fall into the category of toxic dump.
That's less than 250 british pounds sterling per acre (the alt key for the pound sign doesn't work on this board sorry) which equates to 43,560 square ft of land for roughly the price of this week's family food shop. This is a joke. Someone would pay more than that just to be able to walk their dog. You're kidding me, right?
Waves from America
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marcus
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I don't know the price of agricultural land here, but I can confirm that I'm NOT selling my land for 1000 euros per hectare.
Joanna, the problem here is that there is high unemployment and we are in an area with very little industry, employment or money. So although there is infrastructure - schools, airports etc - there is little demand for land. Farmers will be the main purchasers and the price of agricultural land is (stating the obvious) determined by the crop yields they can obtain. So that is the price.
Each maire sets a 'building zone' in their commune, and I'm not currently in one. However planning permission is sometimes granted in other places. I haven't applied, but a typical 2 acre plot in a nice place would sell for 70,000 euros. I have a field that I might look into doing this with at some point.
Would you not find the same situation in some far-off outpost of the US where agriculture is the only option, in the poor states far away from the cities and bright lights?
There is broadly freedom to roam anyway in France, so no-one is going to buy a field to 'walk their dog in' so to speak, since they will have to then keep the land maintained in some shape or form. (Aside - I don't often see someone walking a dog here, although the hunters pass through with their dogs quite often. The dogs are usually farm dogs rather than pets to be walked about.)
All this is of course why lots of english, dutch, parisians etc set up home here when they retire or don't need/want conventional employment - because it is cheap. House prices are not so cheap nowadays but land still is - and your average retired folk don't want 30 acres, they want a garden.
I've not heard of anyone here buying land without a house or planning permission simply for the pleasure of owning land. I can't imagine what the local farmers would say if I said I had bought 20 acres because I like birdwatching or whatever.
We are going to keep the land around us because it stops someone else ever building on it near to our house and gites (which are right in the middle of the land) - so its value to us is far more than 1000 euros per hectare.
But there is no toxic dump nearby and the offer still stands...
Marcus
Joanna, the problem here is that there is high unemployment and we are in an area with very little industry, employment or money. So although there is infrastructure - schools, airports etc - there is little demand for land. Farmers will be the main purchasers and the price of agricultural land is (stating the obvious) determined by the crop yields they can obtain. So that is the price.
Each maire sets a 'building zone' in their commune, and I'm not currently in one. However planning permission is sometimes granted in other places. I haven't applied, but a typical 2 acre plot in a nice place would sell for 70,000 euros. I have a field that I might look into doing this with at some point.
Would you not find the same situation in some far-off outpost of the US where agriculture is the only option, in the poor states far away from the cities and bright lights?
There is broadly freedom to roam anyway in France, so no-one is going to buy a field to 'walk their dog in' so to speak, since they will have to then keep the land maintained in some shape or form. (Aside - I don't often see someone walking a dog here, although the hunters pass through with their dogs quite often. The dogs are usually farm dogs rather than pets to be walked about.)
All this is of course why lots of english, dutch, parisians etc set up home here when they retire or don't need/want conventional employment - because it is cheap. House prices are not so cheap nowadays but land still is - and your average retired folk don't want 30 acres, they want a garden.
I've not heard of anyone here buying land without a house or planning permission simply for the pleasure of owning land. I can't imagine what the local farmers would say if I said I had bought 20 acres because I like birdwatching or whatever.
We are going to keep the land around us because it stops someone else ever building on it near to our house and gites (which are right in the middle of the land) - so its value to us is far more than 1000 euros per hectare.
But there is no toxic dump nearby and the offer still stands...
Marcus