It's looking increasingly like our only choice is to have a twin-wall flue installed as we don't seem to have a flue at all. However, being B-listed and in a conservation area, it looks like we are faced with a fair bit of additional hassle - listed building consent, building control approval* and possibly planning permission in order to do this.
So, with the extra hassle, etc., is it still worth doing? I reckon it'll end up costing us between £2k and £2.5k by the time it's all done (assuming we can get LBC). To justify this cost, I'd hope to see it increase occupancy by at least two weeks per year over the 'non stove' rates (which we can only speculate about seeing as we're not yet 'open for business').
I know it's been suggested by some, but will a good stove install *really* achieve additional bookings? Or, conversely, will NOT having a stove lose us bookings?
* in England, HETAS can self-certify and thus avoid this requirement, but not up in Scotland it seems.
To stove or not to stove....
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johnandtahra
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I'm not sure I can remember where you are? I have a Morso stove at home and simply love it. I can give you no figures as to bookings with or without a stove. I now take bookings for a property that has a stove and all the winter bookings I took were attracted to the stove I'm sure and asked questions about it. My own properties have nothing other than electric heating.
My gut feeling will be that you will regret it if you don't put a stove in, unless it's something you can retro fit at a later stage. I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money in your shoes unless your location is so remote you're going to struggle with bookings anyway.
My gut feeling will be that you will regret it if you don't put a stove in, unless it's something you can retro fit at a later stage. I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money in your shoes unless your location is so remote you're going to struggle with bookings anyway.
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johnandtahra
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To be fair, with the need for various consents and the fact we'll shortly be moving into the spring months, it'll probably have to wait until later this year anyway unless we want to have a week of non-availability whilst the stove is installed and all that goes with it.
The good news is that there is little that I can think of that would have to be done now as opposed to later. That might be the best plan. I just spoke to someone at the council (a listed buildings advisor, no less) who was very helpful but suggested that whilst planning is open-minded about alterations to listed buildings, it does require a number of forms to be filled in and a certain number of hoops to be jumped through. So, maybe our first summer and autumn will be stove free through necessity :/
Apart from that, though, the renovations are coming along nicely, and I think we're creating something quite special and desirable
The good news is that there is little that I can think of that would have to be done now as opposed to later. That might be the best plan. I just spoke to someone at the council (a listed buildings advisor, no less) who was very helpful but suggested that whilst planning is open-minded about alterations to listed buildings, it does require a number of forms to be filled in and a certain number of hoops to be jumped through. So, maybe our first summer and autumn will be stove free through necessity :/
Apart from that, though, the renovations are coming along nicely, and I think we're creating something quite special and desirable
There is often a misunderstanding of twin wall flue lining.
I am sure you are right in what you have written but just incase; There is twin wall insulated (class 1 flue) which is expensive, normal twin wall flexible isn't that expensive. apart from some form of capping would the powers at be be any the wiser to the lining you use? they aren't likely to inspect it are they?
Will it change the outward appearance of the building?
Apologies if I have missed something.
I am sure you are right in what you have written but just incase; There is twin wall insulated (class 1 flue) which is expensive, normal twin wall flexible isn't that expensive. apart from some form of capping would the powers at be be any the wiser to the lining you use? they aren't likely to inspect it are they?
Will it change the outward appearance of the building?
Apologies if I have missed something.
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johnandtahra
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This is twin wall rigid flue (double skin insulated class 1), not 316/904L flexible liner. In other words, we're adding a (modern) flue where there isn't one, as opposed to lining an existing one.
It's B-listed (equivalent-ish to Grade II* in Englandshire) so, yes, they will notice. Probably. But even if they didn't, I'd far rather not take the chance....
It likely will have an impact on the outward appearance inasmuch as there will be a modern flue where previously there was not, but with some careful placement relative to the roof apex and orientation relative to the public highway we can mitigate its effect and the council advisor I spoke with seemed to suggest that they do take an open-minded view of all the circumstances, including the effectiveness of compromised placements. In other words, if moving it to be completely hidden from the street is likely to increase smoke at ground level or decrease the efficiency of the flue (due to closer placement to the ground) then this may work in our favour for a more optimal placement which can be seen.
This makes my head hurt :/
It's B-listed (equivalent-ish to Grade II* in Englandshire) so, yes, they will notice. Probably. But even if they didn't, I'd far rather not take the chance....
It likely will have an impact on the outward appearance inasmuch as there will be a modern flue where previously there was not, but with some careful placement relative to the roof apex and orientation relative to the public highway we can mitigate its effect and the council advisor I spoke with seemed to suggest that they do take an open-minded view of all the circumstances, including the effectiveness of compromised placements. In other words, if moving it to be completely hidden from the street is likely to increase smoke at ground level or decrease the efficiency of the flue (due to closer placement to the ground) then this may work in our favour for a more optimal placement which can be seen.
This makes my head hurt :/
I am not surprised John so much work for the wood burner. I expect the chimney is too high to see if it really is all solid, thinking camera up the chimney to inspect? Not like builders to make it solid if they can get away with it.
There are, if you are not aware companies that can line existing chimneys with a flexible liner inflated with air whilst insulated mortar is pumped around the outside. the inflated liner is then removed.
There are, if you are not aware companies that can line existing chimneys with a flexible liner inflated with air whilst insulated mortar is pumped around the outside. the inflated liner is then removed.
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johnandtahra
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The ‘chimney’ isn’t that tall - I’m going to estimate a 5m rise from where I’d expect the hearth to be/have been. However, photos from the 70s show that the original chimney was quite a bit deeper, and we know that the building was partially rebuilt, including a new roof and fully re-organised room layout internally. Details of that I do not have, but what I do know is what we’ve been able to determine by exposing the ‘chimney’ breast and removing bricks (carefully) and also (in separate areas) strategically drilled holes to try to detect any void. Of course, it could be that we’re being unlucky, but what appears to have happened is that the old chimney was unsafe and during the building work it was removed and a new facsimile in brick created - partly to support the roof and also to maintain the exterior appearance (remember, this is a listed building in a conservation area dating back to 1750). As you say, it’s possible that they did create a void but the lack of any obvious air bricks, the fact that our investigations haven’t located any void, and the era in which it was done suggest that it is no more than a constructional support for the roof and chimney.
What we *might* still have, however, is a small void in the stack external to the roof. In which case, it *might* be possible to expose this void toward the top of the brick column and connect internal twin-wall solid flue to a short length of 904L and ‘up the lum’ as it were. Our installer wants to investigate this possibility some more before we wave the white flag. I am fairly resigned to the likelihood of needing to either abandon the stove idea OR navigate the planning obstacle course and go with a separate rigid flue.
As I said, bit of a headache, this….
What we *might* still have, however, is a small void in the stack external to the roof. In which case, it *might* be possible to expose this void toward the top of the brick column and connect internal twin-wall solid flue to a short length of 904L and ‘up the lum’ as it were. Our installer wants to investigate this possibility some more before we wave the white flag. I am fairly resigned to the likelihood of needing to either abandon the stove idea OR navigate the planning obstacle course and go with a separate rigid flue.
As I said, bit of a headache, this….
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johnandtahra
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No. You can't have an open fire without a chimney of some sort. Which is the problem here. Anyway, open fires are dirtier and less safe than stoves....
My problem here is that the building is listed and it will be a battle to get approval to have a modern chimney installed, given that it would probably be visible from the public highway.
My problem here is that the building is listed and it will be a battle to get approval to have a modern chimney installed, given that it would probably be visible from the public highway.
Just a thought John, how about a flueless gas stove like the burley?
http://www.burley.co.uk/product.php?cid=2&rid=8
http://www.burley.co.uk/product.php?cid=2&rid=8
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That sounds reasonable, I raised it as your question seemed to be about whether the cost was justified for the increase in bookings. We have an open fire, and I know that has made us an attractive property to potential guests (it is one of the searchable terms on our agencies website), and a fire would be cheaper to put in place than a stove, in that you don't have to buy the stove. But you are right that it won't remove the hassle of the consents you require, and in running costs (fuel and cleaning up) it may cost more in the long run. Similarly we have considered replacing our fire with a stove, but don't feel the reasons for wanting it justify the cost, in that we don't think that stoves attract people over open fires - they are happy with either.
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johnandtahra
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A gas stove is a possibility, although I'm not sure that there is the same appeal to guests as a proper stove or fire would have.
It's not as if the flat really needs a secondary source of heating - it has brand new central heating now (ouch!), and will shortly have even more insulation in the attics.
I had another look at the pictures I took when I went up into the attic area, and maybe there is a tiny bit of the original chimney left above the brick column, it's hard to tell. I'm going to need to get my engineer to have a proper look rather than trying to guess....
My plans may be on the ropes, but there's fight left in the old dog yet....
It's not as if the flat really needs a secondary source of heating - it has brand new central heating now (ouch!), and will shortly have even more insulation in the attics.
I had another look at the pictures I took when I went up into the attic area, and maybe there is a tiny bit of the original chimney left above the brick column, it's hard to tell. I'm going to need to get my engineer to have a proper look rather than trying to guess....
My plans may be on the ropes, but there's fight left in the old dog yet....
I am not sure what it is about a proper open fire but I wouldn't want one and would rather book a place with a stove as you end up smelling of fire as does the surroundings, they are definitely bad for your health if not your property insurance premiums.
It's look John, that's all, something cosy and hypnotic about the flames. with no mess and instant lighting maybe a thought.
It's look John, that's all, something cosy and hypnotic about the flames. with no mess and instant lighting maybe a thought.
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