Our Crazy Adventure!

[Penny & Brad]

Hello all, Brad here.

Firstly, what a brillant - and invaluable - source of information and inspiration you all are! We've both learnt so much in the past couple of weeks, and can now hopefully avoid many problems that we hadn't previously even considered!

We are at the early stages of our adventure. Our end goal is to run a successful gite complex. No more than three to begin with, certainly. We'll also live onsite ourselves, and are considering the possibility of also having a small (no more than 5 letting rooms) b&b as an additional income source.

We have a few ideas of additional income streams which will certainly help during quiet periods and when we're getting set up.

The idea is to buy a place with at least two houses that are habitable. One for ourselves, and one to redecorate and start holiday letting almost immediately. We'll also begin renovations on the next gite. Once that's done, we move on to the next - and so on.

We're planning on selling our home in the UK to fund this. The scary part is that we won't have funds for viewing trips until we've sold and burnt our proverbial bridges. All-in our budget will be in the region of £120k for the entire project with no option of going over budget. It will be tight - but should be achievable if we plan as carefully as possible and include a contingency fund within this figure. We're looking at the Limousin region, where property prices are lower than other regions.

I'm planning to call Leggett's on Wednesday to make some enquiries as start the ball rolling properly.

We would both love to hear your thoughts and suggestions as we embark on our crazy adventure. Are we insane? We're both in our mid to late 40's so we're feeling that the time is right, and if we don't do it now then we never will!

Looking forward to getting to know you all.

Best wishes,

Penny and Brad.

[French Cricket]

Hello Brad and Penny, and a warm welcome to LMH.

I can't get any further than saying this. Your budget is simply un-doable for the project you describe. You could expect to spend half of that on the renovation, even doing it yourselves. You need to have a contingency fund of at least 6 months income - ideally a year's income - behind you before you even start as it seems that you'll have no ongoing income while you're renovating.

I live in one of the cheapest areas in France - roughly on a par with the Limousin - and your 150K euros or so would buy you a village house with a small garden that was habitable, or a larger property that would need gutting and fully renovating.

France is not a cheap place to live. You'd need to fund your own health care for 3 months - by which I mean taking out a full health insurance policy (it's a condition of living in France that you have health cover) until you could join the contributory universal system (PUMa) as you'd be classed as 'inactif' while you were renovating.

I'm sorry to deflate the dream, but you have some very serious thinking to do if you're not to come a rather ginormous cropper ...

[Penny & Brad]

Hi FC,

Many thanks for the advice. It's great to hear things like this at THIS stage so we can alter our plans accordingly!

We've seen severalproperties around the £80k mark with at least one habitable house and one outbuilding ready to work on, so thought we would have enough. Doesn't sound like it would be.

Looks like we'll need to rethink our sums and start way smaller, and then build the business up. It's probably the only way it would work?

[French Cricket]

I don't know how many houses you've viewed in France yet, P&B, but let me just say that you need to take the word habitable with a large pinch of salt

[CSE]

Agree with FC. We are not in France, but in Galicia, Spain. Here is very cheap! This is the second cheapest area in Spain to purchase property.
We have seen a number of "expats" wanting to do the same with this sort of amount and it is going to be impossible.*
Do not forget you will/may need to include for any licences to run the rental. (Do not know much about those regulations in France).
Plus just before you finish the property you will need a website and basics like phone line etc these have to be up and running just before you open. Have you included these sort of things in the budget too?
Personally we would say think very very carefully about your dream, it could turn into a nightmare.

*For example here in Galicia. To give you an idea.
Traditional stone built property for total renovation
Land=@16800m² not all in one plot.
House of @ 230m²
Cost: € 112000

[zebedee]

In addition to the excellent advice above, and even if you have the contingency fund suggested, you are looking to not just make a profit in year 2, but a living!
This is considerably more money than many owners expect to make in year 2 so I would suggest you prepare a business plan with a realistic estimate of your living costs

You would be surprised at how long it can take to just get in profit.
People have very high standards for holiday accommodation these days and this means a constant stream of money spent to either replace items that are not at their best, or upgrade and add features just to stand still.

Furthermore it can take time to build up a customer list of repeat guests.

None of these issues would be such a problem if you were not putting all your eggs into one basket.

Good luck and I do hope you get to fulfil your dream.

[Penny & Brad]

Thanks folks. Certainly food for thought. It's better to go in to this with our eyes wide open, rather than covered by rose-tinted glasses!

This is an example of the kind of things we're looking at:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-pro ... 47173.html

Granted, this example is more B&B than gite, but price wise it's about what we had in mind.

I have a little more time now to explain in a bit more detail… To elaborate a little further, the idea would be to initially get a place that we could live in whilst we work on the first rental property. It doesn't matter if the main home needs some love. We're both Scouters, so we're very used to 'slumming it' when needed

Then, when the first property is finished, that will be the main source of income to fund the second refurb, be it in a year or three years.

We ideally want a plot with quite a lot of land as we'd plan on being as self-sustaining as possible (e.g. chickens, vegetables, etc. that could also be sold locally for a small additional income), along with as much green technology as possible (wind turbine, solar panels, etc.).

I'm a web designer, so can literally work from anywhere in the world as long as there's an internet connection. From early investigations, even if i had to resort to satellite broadband, the costs would be about the same as we're paying here in the UK, albeit quite a bit slower. So creating our website, getting good rankings on Google, running successful social media campaigns etc. is the kind of thing I know inside and out, thank goodness! I know a lot of owners here say that their websites are in need of a revamp, so that would suggest that others feel the same way too, so the market does exist.

I also repair and upgrade computers, so will use those skills to earn a crust where possible too.

Don't worry, we know it won't be a quick fix, nor make us rich. It's a lifestyle choice for us. Penny has worked in Westminster for a long time, and wants to escape the rat race there while I have mainly been in customer service / management roles and want to slow the pace down now and do something for us - which sounds really selfish - but we've both had the idea of running a B&B or similar forever and a day, and now with the uncertainty of Brexit and also our ages, we feel that time really is running out if we are ever going to do this.

As long as we can keep our heads above water and earn enough from our collective revenue streams to do so, we'll be happy.

Going by what you've said, it's clear that there's a lot more investigation to do before we take the plunge - which is fine. We want to make it work because once we sell, it would be hard to get back to the UK - so the lack of a safety net or bolt hole would serve to drive us that much harder to ensure we don't fail - but does emphasise the need to do as much of the ground work as humanly possible in advance.

All this having been said, we would still very much like to hear your thoughts and advice. I will be sitting up a blog soon too, so that there's a record of the adventure to follow along with. I think it'd be nice for our guests to see the history and journey as well as having a record of it all for ourselves.

Please keep the advice coming… we need it!! lol

eta: I keep reminding myself of the old saying; "If it was easy, everyone would do it!"

[Casscat]

Hi Penny and Brad, and welcome I'm no expert on the French property market or running a business in France so all I will say is that for such en enormous lifestyle change/gamble you really must find the funds for viewing trips to enable you to see what you can really get for your budget. You should get renovation quotes for any project you like the look of and get professional input regarding the cost of setting yourselves up to trade. If your timescale is flexible have you thought about getting help from the TV programmes which assist people to find places overseas such as A Place in the Sun and Escape to the Continent? (The latter may not be in production but the Beeb may have other 'lifestyle change' progs in the pipeline). They do require evidence that you can afford what you are planning to do, but maybe putting your own home on the market will be enough. You don't have to sell if your French property dream does not come to fruition.

https://www.aplaceinthesun.com/tvshow/a ... show.aspx]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/showsandtours/takepart/

[Penny & Brad]

Hiya Casscat,

We have talked about that. Wouldn't that be a blast? lol

[Sam V]

Do envy you Penny & Brad; this has been a dream of mine for many years after a couple of wonderful holidays touring through France stopping off to stay in Chambre d'hotes, and the tv programmes! What has put me off more than anything else is the French beurocracey setting up and running a business. I'm sure there are plenty of French resident LMHatters here who could give you the low down.

[Ben McNevis]

Penny & Brad, here are my thoughts (with the caveat that my knowledge of France is minimal and my thinking is often wrong):

• 1. That Rightmove example looks like a stonking amount of building for the money.
  2. Bonnefond, as seen on Streetview looks like a pretty dull place. Would I go on holiday there? No.
  3. Although you can make a living out of a clutch of holiday properties (especially if it is you doing the changeovers) it needs to be a year-round business. Filling beds for the summer holiday season is easy but having a nearly full calendar in March and October is almost impossible unless there is something nearby that attracts visitors year-round.

I might be wrong about Bonnefond and I do see that it's in the middle of a Parc Naturel and it has agriculture, woods and some little rivers but I don't think that's enough.
So, I think that your property search needs be centered on tourism destinations unless... you have the capability to create a destination.

What I mean by creating a destination is probably a niche activity that people will travel to as a kind of holiday. This is also very hard and probably expensive to set up. Things like woodcarving classes, pony trekking, art & music workshops etc. If either of you have skills/knowledge and interests that could bring in visitors, then you can set up anywhere that's pretty. Otherwise you are looking for places where (as Mrs McNevis puts it) "people are falling off the pavements" (meaning that the place is so packed with visitors at times that the pavements aren't wide enough).

[Penny & Brad]

Thanks Sam,

I've enjoyed reading your adventures in the forum (the same can be said for everyone who has commented thus far).

I don't think either Penny or myself is naive enough to believe that this venture wont be full of challenges, hard work, blood sweat and tears - but the absolute one thing that each of you has said at one time or another here is that, despite all the hardships and troubles in the beginning, you absolutely 100% agree that you definitely made the right decision. That, more than anything else, convinces me that it will all be worth it in the end.

[Penny & Brad]

Hi Ben,

That's what I mean… there are some amazing properties for sale if you look hard enough.

Totally agree re location. I don't want to give away ALL our ideas at this stage, suffice as to say that we're thinking along the same lines, and have some good ideas re niche markets out of season - some of which may well me new to the region, if not to France itself!

[JaneS]

Hi Penny and Brad

The advice given above is something that you should take on board as it comes from experience.

People watch the TV and see the prices of property and think "oh I can do that renovation" and to be honest do not go there unless you have a contact book full of reliable, French registered and therefore insured workmen.

The house on Rightmove looks to me like a money pit. I suspect it will need a new septic tank to conform with French law - could cost €12,000 depending on how many people you will have at your property as that will dictate the capacity of the size of tank you will need. Then there is the electrics - Legrand boxes are the best and they do not come cheap. Also in France the standing charge is dependent on the kilowatt supply you have. From what you are saying, you may need an 18KW supply and believe me, €100 usage of electricity can easily turn into a bill of over €200 with all the taxes that you pay. Also an 18KW supply is a mini industrial estate size which I have, but I do not have any problems such as not putting the kettle on if the washing machine is on.

Location, well that is personal and entirely your choice. The Correze is a mainly farming area. Unless you get Grand Designs to come and film, I do not know where your market will come from and why should a family go there if there are no attractions and nothing to do; believe me, some guests have low boredom thresholds, especially parents with demanding children.

I think you need to think about area more and look at other areas, with a profile of your ideal guest in the forefront of your head - have you thought about this aspect?. If you base yourself in the heart of the countryside, then your internet will be really slow and expensive if guests start streaming films via a satellite. I am sorry to put this bluntly, but take off the rose tinted glasses - you get what you pay for in France - and take note of the advice that members, such as French Cricket who I agree with when FC says your project is just not doable for the amount of capital you have, have given you. Also, how is your French? If you base yourselves in a rural location such as Correze, then I suggest you learn French very quickly.

Leggetts, enough said. I suggest you do a bit of research on the net. Look at Green Acres or French Property dot com, here you will find private sellers. Are you aware that in France, the buyer pays the estate agents and the notaries' fees? These fees are to a scale. Estate agents have formula that the use and the notaries charge 7% on top. That should give you a guide.

I hope you find the above helpful.

[Penny & Brad]

Hi Jane, and thank you.

To be honest, after all the buzz and excitement we've felt in the past few weeks as we began to plan and develop our dreams and ideas, I have to say that right now I'm feeling pretty deflated and stupid in equal measure.

Right now, I don't know that it's worth going any further because clearly the unanimous consensus is that we are vastly under-estimating how much we will need to make a go of this, and so there doesn't seem much point in flogging a dead horse.

Think I'll leave it for a few days and see how I feel then.

Thanks everyone for saying it as it is. I'd much rather realise it's a non-starter at this stage rather than six months down the line, when it really would be a disaster!