advertising on LMH

[Topcat]

I'm with the 'leave it as it is brigade'. I think Jimbo puts my own concerns very well.

TC

[ravetildon]

One thing that seems to have worked ok on the yahoo group, vacation rentals, is one commercial post about your service and that's it. Keep doing it & you get kicked out.

I think either way it could work great. Then again, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[rentability]

I'd just like to add my perspective here a bit.
I agree that Paolo has done an amazing job protecting the forum from being swamped by people making commercial pitches. It doesn't make life easier for people like me, but I think it probably helps to maintain the atmosphere of the forum, which seems to have the most intelligent discussion and contributors of any of the forums I've looked at. On the other hand (and you knew I was going to come to this bit, didn't you)... A "commercial" section of the forum would have been very useful to us when we started out. We actually originally approached Paolo more than a year ago with the intention of asking the members of this forum if they would like to beta test the early design of Rentability, and provide input into how they thought the business could best suit their needs - in return we were offering about €100 of free credits to each tester. Paolo thought that it would be inappropriate for the forum, and we respected his wishes. But I really wish we could have had some means of communication back then, and I think it's only fair that Paolo receive some income for running the forum. Even now that forum members know about us, if we launch a new feature that we think might be of interest to the members we would like a place to tell you about it which wouldn't infringe the rules (for instance we are adding a new feature right now in response to some of the criticism we got from the forum members here - but I feel nervous posting about it directly because it will sound too much like advertising).

What about a "commercial messages" section of the forum which would allow companies such as ours to post new topics for a fee. Forum members would be able to respond to the topics and discuss them in the normal way for free, but in order to post a new topic in that forum Paolo would charge a small fee - this would:

• create a place to speak for companies such as ours who think we have something genuinely useful to offer the forum members
• stop commercial messages form clogging up everyone's inboxes (the fee would limit the number of messages)
• keep the paid messages separate from normal forum activity, and easily identified as commercial
• Provide a small remuneration for Paolo
• Be very easy to implement (just lock that forum so that no-one except an admin can create a new topic- companies wishing to do so have to send their text to Paolo - maybe as a message along with their paypal payment - and he posts it)

[Richard D]

(for instance we are adding a new feature right now in response to some of the criticism we got from the forum members here - but I feel nervous posting about it directly because it will sound too much like advertising).

Do the forum rules really prohibit listing sites etc. from mentioning improvements that they've made in response to LMH members' comments ? I should hope not !

I for one would be unlikely to spend much time reading a general commercial section, but I guess that if Paolo charged a fee and accepted only adverts that he thought his members might be interested in, then that might create a win-win situation for just about everybody (though I daresay plenty will disagree) !

[rentability]

Do the forum rules really prohibit listing sites etc. from mentioning improvements that they've made in response to LMH members' comments ?

I'm not really sure, and I have transgressed the rules in the past and so feel uncomfortable in case I do it again. In this case I think I'd probably be justified in tacking onto the end of an existing thread, but I agree with Paolo on the importance of keeping your forum free of too much commercial interference - I would be more comfortable posting things like that in a separate area.

[Garri]

I would be more comfortable posting things like that in a separate area.

Which is why a commercial directory, as opposed to an area within the forum, is worth exploring.

It has to be self-service, though moderated. The phpLD script would do the job perfectly. Advertisers would pay to be listed but their ads would not be published until approved by Paolo.

Could even be attractive to firms with services relevant locally to owners.

[Windy]

I'm not sure why this is seen as such a huge deal or why anyone needs to suggest complicated technical solutions.

Surely if we had a topic that was called "Commercials" and that was the only place you were allowed to post adverts then those who wanted to ignore it could. Seems very simple to me! Easy enough to prune and graft errant adverts too.

We could have it separated into area like "Rental Adverts", "Listing Sites". etc.

Paolo could insist that a donation is made for each advert or a discount is give to each LMH member.

It could be a very positive thing and I can't see too many negatives. If anyone abuses it then Paolo just bans them. I run a few forums myself so appreciate that there's an admin overhead but not huge

Am I being naive?

[A-two]

I'm quite amused by this thread. Here's my 2 cents:

If Paolo had wanted to monetize the site with ads, reciprocal links, directories, or levying membership fees, he would have done it by now. I could not presume to know what payback Paolo gets from running LMH, but he does get one, and after all this time, I think it's safe to say that it is not financial. I would hazard a guess that it's educational, the same for admins, members and even casual browsers, at least those who stick around.

Adding a directory wouldn't do anything for an educationally motivated LMH that is driven by originated content, rather than aggregated content from other sources. The LMH success is based on the Paolo principle of self-censored content by members, not censorship by owner or admins. This model has its critics, but it is the foundation on which LMH has been built. Adding a section for service providers to pitch new products to members could change all that, as failure to self-censor could quickly undermine the site engine and structure. That's quite a leap of faith to make for a subset of members driven by a conflicting interest - one of selling products and services to other members - rather than self-help education.

Having said all that, both ideas pass my elevator pitch test, which means to say that I'll venture each concept could become successful in it's own right. However, I am not convinced that there is much, if any, added value from a merger under the LMH banner.

[Garri]

We could have it separated into area like "Rental Adverts", "Listing Sites". etc

The forum already has this, and it's free!

The threads are sometimes initiated by the sites' owners under subterfuge, but more often by LMH members themselves (even better!)

A discussion starts, people join the debate, the rental site owner comes along to say his/her piece, the debate continues then fizzles out only to be resurrected at any given moment.

This is free.

However, I am not convinced that there is much, if any, added value from a merger under the LMH banner.

I agree with you here, which is why Paolo needs to give it careful consideration.

I certainly think it will be very delicate and tricky to incorporate ads into the forum, not from a technical point of view but from a philosophical one.

[Windy]

The forum already has this, and it's free!

Well no it doesn't - that's the point.

I am talking about a discrete area where commercials are allowed, but that readers could easily ignore if they wish. If you didn't want to see commercial postings you'd just ignore it.

At present there are non-commercial areas that some people try to "pollute".

Given the fact that not all commercials are rubbish and some are educational from an information P.o.v. I think a separate area could be a good move.

If postings in each section were limited to one per member / organisation as has been suggested this could be a step forward.

failure to self-censor could quickly undermine the site engine and structure.

I'm not sure how you make that deduction, but I suspect that most of us here have sufficient awareness to be able to filter commercial content appropriately - look what happened as soon as the Normandy site that dare not speak it's name posted - and that was a relatively minor transgression.

The difference would be that there would not be a need for howls of protest if the content were in a permitted but separate area that still had a few rules to keep it in order.

Your read and filter or you ignore - It's a bit like having that button on the front of the TV.

[Garri]

I am talking about a discrete area where commercials are allowed, but that readers could easily ignore if they wish. If you didn't want to see commercial postings you'd just ignore it.

So, Paolo would be seeking to charge advertisers to advertise in a discreet area where their ads are most likely to be ignored?

Where do I sign up

[Windy]

So, Paolo would be seeking to charge advertisers to advertise in a discreet area where their ads are most likely to be ignored? Where do I sign up

It's "discrete" Garri

I did start typing a reply but as you're just trolling again I really can't be bothered.

[paolo]

So, Paolo would be seeking to charge advertisers to advertise in a discreet area where their ads are most likely to be ignored?

This seems to be the same problem a directory would have - isn't that like ITV1 running all its ads on ITV2 and hoping viewers will go there in between programmes?

[Windy]

Paolo

isn't that like ITV1 running all its ads on ITV2 and hoping viewers will go there in between programmes?

I take your point but not quite - it's a bit like ITV1 moving all its ads to ITV2 and giving an uninterrupted flow of programmes on ITV1. (Hooorray!)

Unlike ITV1 you don't have to care if people view the ads as you don't rely on them for income.

Not quite from another perspective as the "ITV2" ads in this case might be useful and could be categorised for easier access rather than being presented and repeated randomly "as they come"

I suppose the main question is "Would such an area deter people from trying to post "wrongly" elsewhere?".

The answer to that may well be "No" in which case a separate area wouldn't have served its purpose.

[Garri]

This seems to be the same problem a directory would have - isn't that like ITV1 running all its ads on ITV2 and hoping viewers will go there in between programmes?

True but the advantage of a directory is it would be stand alone rather than messily intertwined with the forum. My instinct tells me more people would be inclined to browse through a directory than a special area within the forum.

Also, it would be much easier to browse since the structure of directories allow for that.

I'm not sure that a forum is the right platform for ads/listings. Commercial and non-commercial post will be blurred and whilst I appreciate the definition of "discrete", discrete advertising is not attractive to advertisers. In fact, advertising has become more overt over the years, not more discrete. That's not to say it's right, just an observation.

Windy, as for "trolling", you arrived at this thread when exactly?

I would appreciate it if you refrained from personal snipes, we've been here before and it wasn't pleasant, thank you.