As your will know new regulations require swiming pools to be protected by a fence, cover, alarm etc. We have had a cover fitted. To comply with the regulations it must be in place if nobody is by the pool, which in our case is a distance from the house, and out of site. The mechanism is easy, an electric switch, but............
I am looking for ideas on wording for visitors which explains this without sounding draconian. Also for legal wording for my terms and conditions of letting which protects my liability.
We have let our house and pool or four years without mishap, but I think the new regulations should be taken seriously.
What are you doing about this???
Jenny
New swimming pool regulations in France
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Jenny Sweeney
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:14 am
- Location: South Luberon, Provence, France
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Jenny,
Opening a new topic on the subject of swimming pool safety regulations makes me shudder.
During 2004 there has been another Forum dedicated mainly to this subject (it is now pretty well defunct, certainly dormant). To an extent it became a slanging match, with some members indulging in personal derogatory comments about other members. I dare say Paolo will not be too thrilled either, he is very well aware of the Forum I am alluding to.
I feel sure that the members of this Forum will not want to descend to that level but it is always a real danger.
I am living here in France full time. My house and my “Gites� are all within 400 yards of each other and the pool is immediately adjacent to my own house. It all adds up to having a “superintended� pool, so I opted for alarms. I have included reference to the French law in my terms and conditions and I have prepared a “users manual� for my guests - nothing draconian, just explanatory. Also, on day 1 my guests get a personal demonstration from me on how to use the alarms – it’s not rocket science, it’s really terribly simple.
There have been no adverse reactions whatever. Many guests have been completely unaware of the regulations. Some adult-only parties have been amused and entertained. Families with young children have been appreciative. If you like, it’s just another opportunity to demonstrate to your guests that you care.
Alan
Opening a new topic on the subject of swimming pool safety regulations makes me shudder.
During 2004 there has been another Forum dedicated mainly to this subject (it is now pretty well defunct, certainly dormant). To an extent it became a slanging match, with some members indulging in personal derogatory comments about other members. I dare say Paolo will not be too thrilled either, he is very well aware of the Forum I am alluding to.
I feel sure that the members of this Forum will not want to descend to that level but it is always a real danger.
I am living here in France full time. My house and my “Gites� are all within 400 yards of each other and the pool is immediately adjacent to my own house. It all adds up to having a “superintended� pool, so I opted for alarms. I have included reference to the French law in my terms and conditions and I have prepared a “users manual� for my guests - nothing draconian, just explanatory. Also, on day 1 my guests get a personal demonstration from me on how to use the alarms – it’s not rocket science, it’s really terribly simple.
There have been no adverse reactions whatever. Many guests have been completely unaware of the regulations. Some adult-only parties have been amused and entertained. Families with young children have been appreciative. If you like, it’s just another opportunity to demonstrate to your guests that you care.
Alan
I am delighted to see this come up - it's a big issue for French owners. I don't think there will be any slanging matches here!
I agree with Alan - I would just write the instructions in a very straight and explanatory way, and make the effort he does if you are on site to teach them how it works. I guess your cover is easier to explain than an alarm anyway. Most guests won't even have heard of these regulations, and Alan is spot on:
I agree with Alan - I would just write the instructions in a very straight and explanatory way, and make the effort he does if you are on site to teach them how it works. I guess your cover is easier to explain than an alarm anyway. Most guests won't even have heard of these regulations, and Alan is spot on:
Get this across and you are more likely to retain their custom next year.it’s just another opportunity to demonstrate to your guests that you care
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Paolo,
Yes, swimming pool security is a big issue here in France. Providing a safe environment for children under the age of 5 is important, as it is for all ages, and the penalties for non-compliance are huge - how does a maximum fine of €45,000 grab you?
Enjoy your break in Cornwall.
Alan
I do hope you are right and, judging by the flavour of this Forum and it’s members, you are!I am delighted to see this come up - it's a big issue for French owners. I don't think there will be any slanging matches here!
Yes, swimming pool security is a big issue here in France. Providing a safe environment for children under the age of 5 is important, as it is for all ages, and the penalties for non-compliance are huge - how does a maximum fine of €45,000 grab you?
Enjoy your break in Cornwall.
Alan
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Jenny Sweeney
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:14 am
- Location: South Luberon, Provence, France
Thanks for your views. I certainly do not want to start an argument going. The situation exists and as you say practical advice, well presented is the best approach.
I was looking for sime tips on legal wording on liability in my terms and conditions. We are not at the house when it is let. I want to make clear the visitor,s obligation to adhere to the regulations.
Jenny
I was looking for sime tips on legal wording on liability in my terms and conditions. We are not at the house when it is let. I want to make clear the visitor,s obligation to adhere to the regulations.
Jenny
Jenny Sweeney
Enjoying freedom years in France.
Enjoying freedom years in France.
Swimming Pool Regs
I note this subject has not been addressed for a while.
I am concerned about my pool. As my Gite only accommodates a couple (without children), do the Regs apply to me?
In my Booking Conditions I include the sentence:
"The renter is strongly recommended to arrange a comprehensive travel insurance policy (including cancellation cover) and to have full cover for the party’s personal belongings, since these are not covered by the Owner’s insurance."
So................. do I need to do anything?
Regards
Ann
I am concerned about my pool. As my Gite only accommodates a couple (without children), do the Regs apply to me?
In my Booking Conditions I include the sentence:
"The renter is strongly recommended to arrange a comprehensive travel insurance policy (including cancellation cover) and to have full cover for the party’s personal belongings, since these are not covered by the Owner’s insurance."
So................. do I need to do anything?
Regards
Ann
I don't know how it works in France, but in the U.S. you can be found liable if someone gets hurt or drowns in your pool regardless of whether that person had your permission to use the pool. There are stories of people whose neighbors' toddler wandered into their backyard and fell into their unfenced pool... not at all worth the risk, in my opinion.
Of course I need to point out that I haven't the slightest idea of how this works in France!
Of course I need to point out that I haven't the slightest idea of how this works in France!
Brooke
You do need a security device in place in France regardless of who you rent to and how many. In fact from Jan 2006 all pools including those not rented out will be obliged to have a security system. We've opted for alarm with back up fencing that whilst not a securty fence gives an extra line of defence. Our paper work points out that we have an alarm, gives intsructions on how to use it ,which are also posted by the pool and we give a demo too. We also say that whilst we have taken every necessary precaution to ensure the safety of our pool our systems do not replace parental supervision. Common sense really but I agree it can be worrying. We are all in the same boat trying to care for our clients but they need to act responsibly too.
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Ann,
Enid is absolutely right. As you are letting you must have a pool security system, carrying a certificate of compliance, now. The law applied to you as of the 1st May 2004.
Somewhere else on the forum I posted a brief resume of the position but I can't remember where.
I don't want to "alarm" you too much but there is a fine of up to 45,000€ for not having a system installed.
PM me if you want any more details.
Alan
Enid is absolutely right. As you are letting you must have a pool security system, carrying a certificate of compliance, now. The law applied to you as of the 1st May 2004.
Somewhere else on the forum I posted a brief resume of the position but I can't remember where.
I don't want to "alarm" you too much but there is a fine of up to 45,000€ for not having a system installed.
PM me if you want any more details.
Alan
"there is a fine of up to 45,000€"..... and since it is a penal offence, you could be sentenced to a term of imprisonment.
Having said that, I should add that the security measures "only" have to protect under-5 yr olds. If a 5yr old + has an accident you might not automatically be investigated for pool security. "Might not", note.
Having said that, I should add that the security measures "only" have to protect under-5 yr olds. If a 5yr old + has an accident you might not automatically be investigated for pool security. "Might not", note.
Best,
Alexia.
Alexia.
I agree with most of what has been said here, and I 100 % agree with the law.
One thing I don't agree with though is that you need to have a "certified" system. As long as your system meets all the requirements it does not have to be certified. For example you could build a wall, and as long it is the correct height and meets the other requirements for gates etc it will meet the law.
There is also no system in place for inspections at the moment, so the fines etc will only be imposed if there is an incedent.
I for one find the idea of a child being hurt in my pool a much greater deterent than a fine.
I certainly don't want to get into a slagging match, as I think this is an important issue. I also feel it is something that ex-pats are taking far more seriously than the French, and that there are alot of companies using it as an opportunity to fleece us.
Ju
One thing I don't agree with though is that you need to have a "certified" system. As long as your system meets all the requirements it does not have to be certified. For example you could build a wall, and as long it is the correct height and meets the other requirements for gates etc it will meet the law.
There is also no system in place for inspections at the moment, so the fines etc will only be imposed if there is an incedent.
I for one find the idea of a child being hurt in my pool a much greater deterent than a fine.
I certainly don't want to get into a slagging match, as I think this is an important issue. I also feel it is something that ex-pats are taking far more seriously than the French, and that there are alot of companies using it as an opportunity to fleece us.
Ju
It's here:Alan Knighting wrote:Somewhere else on the forum I posted a brief resume of the position but I can't remember where.
viewtopic.php?p=6099
Paolo
Lay My Hat
Lay My Hat
Like Ju, I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the French regs but she is right about certification no longer being required.
Few people seem to have heard of the
Décret n° 2004-499 du 7 juin 2004 which modified the décret n° 2003-1389 du 31 décembre 2003 .
This is one of the worst pieces of legislation I have ever seen - without going into details, it is amusing (?) to know that its new requirements render the old AFNOR norms obsolete. e.g. a fence has now to be so designed that a child under 5 cannot gain access to the pool without the help of an adult. This is not true of an AFNOR certified fence, which could be opened by a 6 or a 16 yr old who could then let in the under-5 yr old.
The chap who drafted the decree is an engineer, not a lawyer...... this is insane. Would you want to fly in a plane designed by a lawyer?
BUT don't panic. Wait for a new decree.
And Ju is also right: we are taking this much more seriously than the French. But, hey - who can take this latest decree seriously? If you think you can, read the J.O n° 131 du 8 juin 2004 page 10127.
Few people seem to have heard of the
Décret n° 2004-499 du 7 juin 2004 which modified the décret n° 2003-1389 du 31 décembre 2003 .
This is one of the worst pieces of legislation I have ever seen - without going into details, it is amusing (?) to know that its new requirements render the old AFNOR norms obsolete. e.g. a fence has now to be so designed that a child under 5 cannot gain access to the pool without the help of an adult. This is not true of an AFNOR certified fence, which could be opened by a 6 or a 16 yr old who could then let in the under-5 yr old.
The chap who drafted the decree is an engineer, not a lawyer...... this is insane. Would you want to fly in a plane designed by a lawyer?
BUT don't panic. Wait for a new decree.
And Ju is also right: we are taking this much more seriously than the French. But, hey - who can take this latest decree seriously? If you think you can, read the J.O n° 131 du 8 juin 2004 page 10127.
Best,
Alexia.
Alexia.