What say you
My contribution to this discussion, on basis of what I had directly learned (and therefore evaluated) about renting out in Spain as a foreign owner, has been that:
1. Spanish people are extremely kind, but are not too happy to have foreign rules imposed on them.... so they rather insist on what had been customary in their country... and it will take some patience and effort for us foreigners to make them feel comfortable to abide by our "rules," (those of foreigners in their own country - owning properties there).
2. I wholeheartedly agree with Brenda and Lorca..... if I left anyone out, I am sorry. It is THEIR country, and I actually applaud them for insisting on maintaining the rules of their own country. Give me a break! The last thing they need is have a bunch of foreigners dictating to them how things will be done in their own country!
3. (On the side:) ... Spanish inquiries (from sites as Niumba and Homeaway.es) have been the biggest pain in the butt for me personally.... (always August, and nothing but August), but, I have had some amazing Spanish repeat guests through Spain-holiday.
True, it had taken some work - initially - to convince them that I was not a fraud.... that all the etc. were true ....
as I said, real work (meaning lots of investment in time to communicate clearly why there had to be a reservation deposit.... and why payment had to be made up front..... unless they wanted to pay for my cost of having someone there waiting for them..... etc etc etc...)
My main point: if you want to do business in a country that you are a stranger in, then show some respect for the people in that country!
1. Spanish people are extremely kind, but are not too happy to have foreign rules imposed on them.... so they rather insist on what had been customary in their country... and it will take some patience and effort for us foreigners to make them feel comfortable to abide by our "rules," (those of foreigners in their own country - owning properties there).
2. I wholeheartedly agree with Brenda and Lorca..... if I left anyone out, I am sorry. It is THEIR country, and I actually applaud them for insisting on maintaining the rules of their own country. Give me a break! The last thing they need is have a bunch of foreigners dictating to them how things will be done in their own country!
3. (On the side:) ... Spanish inquiries (from sites as Niumba and Homeaway.es) have been the biggest pain in the butt for me personally.... (always August, and nothing but August), but, I have had some amazing Spanish repeat guests through Spain-holiday.
True, it had taken some work - initially - to convince them that I was not a fraud.... that all the etc. were true ....
as I said, real work (meaning lots of investment in time to communicate clearly why there had to be a reservation deposit.... and why payment had to be made up front..... unless they wanted to pay for my cost of having someone there waiting for them..... etc etc etc...)
My main point: if you want to do business in a country that you are a stranger in, then show some respect for the people in that country!
subject
Janee, I do agree with you about the Spanish. I am not a kind of person who wishes to impose my wishes on anybody. The fact remains that every business has its basic requirement as part of a contract.
a) Business via internet has its own rules not mine or Spaniards. They have become global by evolution. In the past most Spaniard's would rent from contact's etc. The parties involved will know each other perhaps in some cases for two generations.
b) If the Spanish wishes to view a property as no other nationality wants to do so. They need to pay for the time of the key holder & their cost. This they are not willing to do.
c) What happens when one book's a particular week say in August & when they turn up they say or pretend not to like what they see. How is the owner going to let that week? it will also create a unpleasent situation with the key holder what is he/she suppose to do & whose side should he/she should be.
d) I have informed them that we have reviews from the past guest, we are with the advertsing site for "x" no of years, the same with paypal If we were not the article, than these bodies i.e. Paypal etc would have struck us out long time ago.
e) If they wish to view the property they should go to a Hotel where they have the choice.
I have the option of giving details of my Spanish friends for verification etc to them. I however do not wish to disturb them besides why would they trust that the person that they have contact is an impartial party.
The reality is that the system in Spain & the corruption is at such a level that no one goes for good faith or beleives that anybody will be honest, trustworthy & a person of entgrity. Sad reality as 95% people on this planet are honest & hounorable people.
I am probebly one of the very few owners who will ring the guest a few days later after sending them the terms and conditions etc. In order to satisfy them or deal with their indiviual query or any other aspect that my personal website has not covered. ( This is done, irrespective of the origion of the guest )
a) Business via internet has its own rules not mine or Spaniards. They have become global by evolution. In the past most Spaniard's would rent from contact's etc. The parties involved will know each other perhaps in some cases for two generations.
b) If the Spanish wishes to view a property as no other nationality wants to do so. They need to pay for the time of the key holder & their cost. This they are not willing to do.
c) What happens when one book's a particular week say in August & when they turn up they say or pretend not to like what they see. How is the owner going to let that week? it will also create a unpleasent situation with the key holder what is he/she suppose to do & whose side should he/she should be.
d) I have informed them that we have reviews from the past guest, we are with the advertsing site for "x" no of years, the same with paypal If we were not the article, than these bodies i.e. Paypal etc would have struck us out long time ago.
e) If they wish to view the property they should go to a Hotel where they have the choice.
I have the option of giving details of my Spanish friends for verification etc to them. I however do not wish to disturb them besides why would they trust that the person that they have contact is an impartial party.
The reality is that the system in Spain & the corruption is at such a level that no one goes for good faith or beleives that anybody will be honest, trustworthy & a person of entgrity. Sad reality as 95% people on this planet are honest & hounorable people.
I am probebly one of the very few owners who will ring the guest a few days later after sending them the terms and conditions etc. In order to satisfy them or deal with their indiviual query or any other aspect that my personal website has not covered. ( This is done, irrespective of the origion of the guest )
Re: subject
Camel, that is a very good point!camel wrote:
.... Business via internet has its own rules not mine or Spaniards. ...
Not sure about ".... the reality is that the system in Spain & the corruption is at such a level that no one goes for good faith or beleives that anybody will be honest, trustworthy & a person of entgrity...."
being a fact... in any event, I would not know. I rather believed that they insist on upholding their customary ways and feel they CAN as it's their country after all.
But again, you did raise a very valid point (re business via internet). One could say "you can't have your cake and eat it, too."
The viewing request would not be a problem for owners on-site, but the refusal to pay a deposit or otherwise abide by the owner's payment terms, while benefiting from the option to choose and book on-line, would be a way too one-sided agreement in favor of the guest, and therefore just not acceptable.
(Myself, I have gone to great length to explain it, and the reasonable have understood.)
subject
Janee, as you indicated on the lines. The Spanish are very proud people.
They have an in built dislike for rules, regulations and authority. If they cannot have their way they will agree with you & than later renage or sit on the fence & only move when it suits them and the manner it suits them. ( I blame the Church, Franco and the uneducated generation )
Every nation has its traits. They could be for historical, economical, social, cultural reasons.
They have an in built dislike for rules, regulations and authority. If they cannot have their way they will agree with you & than later renage or sit on the fence & only move when it suits them and the manner it suits them. ( I blame the Church, Franco and the uneducated generation )
Every nation has its traits. They could be for historical, economical, social, cultural reasons.
subject
The latest one.
Got an email a week before arrival date.25th June 11
( Catalans this time ) replied to them & stressed the need for urgency etc. No reply twenty four hour later contacted them & agreed that I will send them an invoice ( sunday night invoice was sent after midnight due to the urgency ) they agreed to transfer funds to the Bank account i.e. Monday morning. As they did not want to pay the paypal charges. ( Catalans alright ).
Not having heard from them I got in touch with them on Tuesday i.e. today. The response we will do credit transfar
" manana" the account on Wednesday. I informed that this means if the funds are not in our account they will not get the keys.
I was assured by them that they very honest people & will transfer the funds. They than decided to come back to me to that they will pay cash to the key holder or they do not wish to rent this is four days before arrival.
Throught out our conversation they took great pride in informing me that they were not Spanish & stressed of them being Catalans as some kind of superior to the rest of Spain.
( Before you all tell about the Catalan issue its history etc. Please do not as I am aware of the situation )
Got an email a week before arrival date.25th June 11
( Catalans this time ) replied to them & stressed the need for urgency etc. No reply twenty four hour later contacted them & agreed that I will send them an invoice ( sunday night invoice was sent after midnight due to the urgency ) they agreed to transfer funds to the Bank account i.e. Monday morning. As they did not want to pay the paypal charges. ( Catalans alright ).
Not having heard from them I got in touch with them on Tuesday i.e. today. The response we will do credit transfar
" manana" the account on Wednesday. I informed that this means if the funds are not in our account they will not get the keys.
I was assured by them that they very honest people & will transfer the funds. They than decided to come back to me to that they will pay cash to the key holder or they do not wish to rent this is four days before arrival.
Throught out our conversation they took great pride in informing me that they were not Spanish & stressed of them being Catalans as some kind of superior to the rest of Spain.
( Before you all tell about the Catalan issue its history etc. Please do not as I am aware of the situation )
Re: subject
Catalans do not think they are superior at all, they are just closer to the "North European" mentality and defend their nation.camel wrote:took great pride in informing me that they were not Spanish & stressed of them being Catalans as some kind of superior to the rest of Spain.
( Before you all tell about the Catalan issue its history etc. Please do not as I am aware of the situation )
You may or may not know about the Catalan history, but you certainly don't know anything about the people.
I'm sorry to be blunt ...but many people believe every ridiculous thing that is said about Catalunya. I have lived here for long enough to see the real truth,
I feel I have to join this discussion to endorse what Lorca, Brenda and Janee have said and to add my bit.
Our experiences of letting to Spaniards have been positive with almost no exception (the exception being a group who were much younger than we thought and nationality was probably not such a big factor as age). They are unfailingly courteous and appreciative and generally leave the place in a very much better state than UK guests, I am ashamed to say.
If they are wary of parting with their money before they see the property it is with good reason - until relatively recently it was not uncommon for them to turn up and find that it was not as expected, or it had been let to someone else, etc. They are not unique in this - many French guests want to bring the money with them.
I have found that offering in the first instance to take payment of the balance on arrival serves to reassure them (the deposit being 25%), and some then say that they prefer not to carry so much cash and will pay in advance. Recently a returning guest who paid cash the first time has asked if he can pay the balance by bank transfer, which I think underlines why it is that they wish to bring cash the first time.
No one has EVER quibbled about paying the deposit (which in peak season is nearly €1000) and if they have coughed up that much already I can't see them turning the place down when they arrive provided it is as described. For me the main risk of cash on arrival is if they have to cancel for some reason close to the date because they never seem to take out insurance despite the recommendation being in red on the contract.
As we can't seem to see your property, Camel, it is difficult to judge, but is it possible that there is not enough information/images from your pages for them to feel confident?
Presumably someone has to be there for the handover of keys? Why can this person not be responsible for taking the money?
Janee - I agree that Spanish Niumba enquiries tend to be for August only but we have had the odd booking for July and September and of course Easter (plus all the ones who would like to have the odd weekend in May, June or July despite what is says about our minimum let!) I am praying that Niumba will deliver a nice juicy Spanish booking for the second half of August which remains unusually vacant. As the Spanish tend not to start looking till the last minute I am very hopeful.
Our experiences of letting to Spaniards have been positive with almost no exception (the exception being a group who were much younger than we thought and nationality was probably not such a big factor as age). They are unfailingly courteous and appreciative and generally leave the place in a very much better state than UK guests, I am ashamed to say.
If they are wary of parting with their money before they see the property it is with good reason - until relatively recently it was not uncommon for them to turn up and find that it was not as expected, or it had been let to someone else, etc. They are not unique in this - many French guests want to bring the money with them.
I have found that offering in the first instance to take payment of the balance on arrival serves to reassure them (the deposit being 25%), and some then say that they prefer not to carry so much cash and will pay in advance. Recently a returning guest who paid cash the first time has asked if he can pay the balance by bank transfer, which I think underlines why it is that they wish to bring cash the first time.
No one has EVER quibbled about paying the deposit (which in peak season is nearly €1000) and if they have coughed up that much already I can't see them turning the place down when they arrive provided it is as described. For me the main risk of cash on arrival is if they have to cancel for some reason close to the date because they never seem to take out insurance despite the recommendation being in red on the contract.
As we can't seem to see your property, Camel, it is difficult to judge, but is it possible that there is not enough information/images from your pages for them to feel confident?
Presumably someone has to be there for the handover of keys? Why can this person not be responsible for taking the money?
Janee - I agree that Spanish Niumba enquiries tend to be for August only but we have had the odd booking for July and September and of course Easter (plus all the ones who would like to have the odd weekend in May, June or July despite what is says about our minimum let!) I am praying that Niumba will deliver a nice juicy Spanish booking for the second half of August which remains unusually vacant. As the Spanish tend not to start looking till the last minute I am very hopeful.
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Hells Bells
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Not relevant to Spain, but in my agreement with my apartment manager when we first started renting, it stated that handling of cash was not included in the agreement. She will accept a French cheque for a damage deposit, and has occasionally helped out with a really late booking, but with online booking and payment available it is usually not necessary. So my keyholder would not be willing to start taking payments.
That's exactly my position Helen. My manager won't get involved in taking cash either; I can't say I blame him.
Nor will he now do midstay cleans because of the possibility of mislaid valuables being attributed to theft by cleaners...
In London, where I can be around to take the cash, I say I'm willing to spread the risk 50/50 and I'll take half the cash on arrival if they'll pay the other half as a booking deposit.
In Spain, where I can't be around, it has to be payment up front.
I think a lot of it is that people just don't want to pay up front, nothing to do with any risk of the place not actually existing; it's easy enough to give comfort in that respect if you can point to a website that you've been listing on for several years plus feedback.
I'll now take payment in stages for the spanish one if pushed so that the last payment might be 25%, received a week or two ahead of arrival and the other 75% paid as 25% on booking and then a further 50% say a month ahead but it does get complicated.
But where people really start trying to dictate the terms, I get bolshy and in the end I usually tell them I don't want to rent to them if they can't stick to reasonable payment terms, after all my risk is a £250,000 property; what's theirs?
Nor will he now do midstay cleans because of the possibility of mislaid valuables being attributed to theft by cleaners...
In London, where I can be around to take the cash, I say I'm willing to spread the risk 50/50 and I'll take half the cash on arrival if they'll pay the other half as a booking deposit.
In Spain, where I can't be around, it has to be payment up front.
I think a lot of it is that people just don't want to pay up front, nothing to do with any risk of the place not actually existing; it's easy enough to give comfort in that respect if you can point to a website that you've been listing on for several years plus feedback.
I'll now take payment in stages for the spanish one if pushed so that the last payment might be 25%, received a week or two ahead of arrival and the other 75% paid as 25% on booking and then a further 50% say a month ahead but it does get complicated.
But where people really start trying to dictate the terms, I get bolshy and in the end I usually tell them I don't want to rent to them if they can't stick to reasonable payment terms, after all my risk is a £250,000 property; what's theirs?
Nightowl
Forever going one step forwards and two
backwards......
Forever going one step forwards and two
backwards......
Of course it´s not possible for many owners who are not on site to take cash on arrival. I´m sure it´s just fine to explain this to guests.
However, it has been the custom in Spain and France (at least) to pay the balance on arrival. There is nothing nefarious about this - it´s just the custom. Many guests from these countries are happy to pay upfront despite this - others feel uncomfortable about it because it´s not what they´re used to. If they´re not happy with the payment terms for a particular property they´ll move on. No problem - and not much point in getting wound up about it really.
However, it has been the custom in Spain and France (at least) to pay the balance on arrival. There is nothing nefarious about this - it´s just the custom. Many guests from these countries are happy to pay upfront despite this - others feel uncomfortable about it because it´s not what they´re used to. If they´re not happy with the payment terms for a particular property they´ll move on. No problem - and not much point in getting wound up about it really.
If not now, when?
subject
"Catalans do not think they are superior at all, they are just closer to the "North European" mentality and defend their nation "
They do not behave in a Northern European manner. Infact their behaviour close to doing business in a Souk in Morocco.
They do not behave in a Northern European manner. Infact their behaviour close to doing business in a Souk in Morocco.
subject
My website terms & conditions stases 50% two months before arrival & 100% thereafter. So they have read the terms & agreed. At this pont they can say I do not agree with your yoir terms & we close the matter. I am expected to change my terms & conditions tailor make them per indiviual guest and in this case why I should not make this facilty to guest from other parts of the world.
They will agree to the terms & later or last minute start playing games.
Perhaps they wish to pay cash as there is so much black money in the economy that this gives them a chance to off load the dinero negro.
They will agree to the terms & later or last minute start playing games.
Perhaps they wish to pay cash as there is so much black money in the economy that this gives them a chance to off load the dinero negro.
subject
In order to have good control we do not deal with cash for reason,
a) The cash could be for ill gotten gains & accepting cash from them will make us an accomplise.
b) The key holder becomes responsible for the cash she could later be mugged.
c) The key holder than has to go to our Bank to deposit the money who is going to pay for her time.
d) The time the key holder uses (c) she could be cleaning or receiving or saying good bye to guest.
The key holders do a very crucial job in dealing with people who turn up late, dont contact the key holders in good time, create problems in not handing over deposit money for breakage etc, breakthings & than deny . The last thing I would want the key holder to burden with the cash.
Besides as I said this problem is only created by the Spanish & no other nationality.
a) The cash could be for ill gotten gains & accepting cash from them will make us an accomplise.
b) The key holder becomes responsible for the cash she could later be mugged.
c) The key holder than has to go to our Bank to deposit the money who is going to pay for her time.
d) The time the key holder uses (c) she could be cleaning or receiving or saying good bye to guest.
The key holders do a very crucial job in dealing with people who turn up late, dont contact the key holders in good time, create problems in not handing over deposit money for breakage etc, breakthings & than deny . The last thing I would want the key holder to burden with the cash.
Besides as I said this problem is only created by the Spanish & no other nationality.