Guest claiming full refund via Small Claims Court

[ceilwart26]

Does anyone have any experience if the Small Claims Court?

I had a guest from Hell (caused damage and left the place a filthy mess - which I didn't invoice for), who has subsequently made a claim via the Small Claims Court for a full refund because work was carried out while they were there. This was one hours work only and they were asked if it was OK prior to commencement.

Can anyone advise please?

Thanks,
Jane

[e-richard]

The first, obvious, point is to check your T&C where one hopes you have a clause to cover this. FYI, I just checked my own, which I copied from someone else here on the forum, and the wording I use is:

You will allow maintenance personnel, cleaning staff, the Owners and the Owner's representative reasonable access to the property for the purposes of repair and maintenance.

HOWEVER, even without this or even disregarding any wording you may have, the Small Claims Court will look at what is "reasonable", and IMHO a full refund for 1 hours disruption is "unreasonable".

At a guess, and without knowing any other circumstances that your guests will bring to court, I go further to suggest that the court is unlikely to consider any compensation for one hour's disruption for essential work, that your guest agreed to. Was this agreement verbal ?

Caveat: I wonder if there is more to this episode (from the guest's point of view) than you have posted ?

[kendalcottages]

I have a little experience of the small claims court but not from an owner/guest perspective (more just chasing debts from bad payers with my other business).

I have almost always found the judge to be reasonable and, like e-richard says, this doesn't sound a reasonable claim.

Am I correct in thinking that they have actually submitted a claim and you now have a copy, or have they just threatened to submit a claim? The two are of course very different.

If the former, what does it says specifically on the claim. Might be worth posting the exact wording in the members' only forum if you want some additional eyes cast over it. Do they acknowledge it was just one hour's disruption, for instance, or might they suggest more? I can't think why anyone in their right mind would put in a claim for the full amount of the holiday for just one hour's disruption...

This was one hours work only and they were asked if it was OK prior to commencement.

I'd also be interested to know if you have this written down - perhaps an exchange of emails prior to their arrival?

[ceilwart26]

It was half an hours work with their verbal blessing and half an hours work to put path back after they asked the builders to stop as it was too loud (reasonable request and the builders were correct to make the path safe). I offered to pay for them to go for a meal while it was put back but they refused. The next morning the guests had left, leaving a note that they thought the builders would be back and didn't want to stay (day 2 of a 7 day stay).
A week later I got a letter demanding return of full payment else they'd take me to court.
And yesterday I got a small claims court file.

Unfortunately there's no clause in my T&Cs that cover this.

Thanks for the advice
Jane

[kendalcottages]

IANAL - and no doubt don't have all the facts - but there are a number of things that I would imagine are not in their favour, regardless of what your T&C state...

1. they gave their blessing to the work being done. I appreciate this isn't written down, but neither are other things 'written down' such as the level of noise that was experienced, etc.

I don't suppose they acknowledge that they gave their approval in the specifics of their claim...?

2. they declined a perfectly reasonable offer and instead chose to subject themselves to the noise (again, pity it's only verbal...)

3. they made an assumption that more work was going to take place, which wasn't necessarily the case

4. What was the time period and your response (if any) between:

A week later I got a letter demanding return of full payment else they'd take me to court.

and...

And yesterday I got a small claims court file.

If they gave you little opportunity to respond or offer some kind of gesture/solution, again I don't think this would be looked upon favourably by a judge as taking proceedings should really only be done as a last resort.

5. One hour of disruption doesn't ruin the other 167 hours of the week!

[ceilwart26]

No I didn't reply to their letter, as I was very cross that they had left the cottage a mess and had damaged the visitors book by scribbling on multiple pages and ripping bits out.
I didn't feel they deserved a refund to be honest.

Thanks for your comments, they have heartened me to provide a defence instead of just paying up, as this felt very much like being bullied!

Thanks
Jane

[Giddy Goat]

Caveat: I wonder if there is more to this episode (from the guest's point of view) than you have posted ?

Yes, I also wondered.

The next morning the guests had left, leaving a note that they thought the builders would be back

That would have been correct to assume and it makes me query whether you had pre-agreed the time for the initial work to be carried out - or had it been left that the builders would be turning up "at some point"?

Even if this had been left open (and both sides clearly underestimated the disruption), all the guests needed to say was "can we set a convenient time for the work to be resumed?" rather than simply pack up and leave. Failures of communication can usually be settled amicably. Ideally there shouldn't be such failures but you did do your best to put things right by offering them a meal at your expense, so they were possibly overreacting and you would be more careful another time I feel sure.

Jan, (Jane?) - do you have dated photographs of the mess/damage, even down to the guestbook? That would help your defense. The barns look lovely btw.

[salmoncottage]

What is considered to be 'reasonable' seems to be the hinge here, as it is in most disputes. And if we are truly being reasonable then we must ask ourselves the question 'didn't we somewhere along the line start the ball rolling ourselves?'
You can do some simple maths to asses wherether or not it might be more expensive to counter claim with court costs, your time, phone calls, possible judgement against you etc or just give them what they're asking for, put your expensive principals to the side and get on with your life.

[Nemo]

You can do some simple maths to asses wherether or not it might be more expensive to counter claim with court costs, your time, phone calls, possible judgement against you etc or just give them what they're asking for, put your expensive principals to the side and get on with your life.

Yes but sometimes those principals will have an affect on others. If Jane refunds in full, then those guests can make unreasonable demands on the next owner and so it goes on. I think there are sides to both arguments, but do I think a court would award a full refund, no. (IANAL, but have had many court dealings and my son recently completed a small claim that went in his favour.)

It may well be that once Jane starts the fight back, they may realise that she is no pushover and will give up. The court process is not too difficult. You do not involve lawyers, just merely produce as much evidence as you can, prepare the relevant documents and send them when required by the court. Maybe it will get to court, but quite possibly not.

I would certainly not lie down and give in. Whether you wish to offer a partial refund is a consideration, but if you have proof that they caused damage then maybe not.

As in other areas of life, we need to know when to give up but also when to fight back.

[salmoncottage]

Thats my point Nemo, when to give in and when to fight back;
Were the guests fully informed of likely disruption prior to arrival - yes/no. Were the works an emergency - yes/no. Could the works or part of it have been carried out prior to arrival and part following departure, say during changovers ("1 hours work") - yes/no. Were alternatives offered prior to arrival - yes/no.
The above are all 'reasonable' questions an arbitrator could ask to establish if the contract was misrepresented due to neglect as the guests are implying.

[Nemo]

Yes indeed and only Jane can know the full facts. However, to expect a full refund because they chose to leave after two days is not reasonable in my book. It suggests they had other reasons for wanting to leave. One hours builders work, stopped at their request and then assuming the builders would come back despite the circumstances, is just too suspicious for my liking.

With the best will in the world, you cannot always schedule things for between guests and if the path was unsafe, then it was reasonable to do emergency repairs. Clearly your T's and C's need to allow this to happen if necessary. Checking mine asap for the wording!

[NeatandPicky]

OH (who has successfully sued through Small Claims Court) has just pointed out that regardless of where the claim is registered initially, Jane can ask to have the case heard in her local court. Wonder how far away the guests live?

See http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/you ... claims.htm

Relevant section:

Which court deals with the case

The case can be started in any county court.

The court will then transfer the case automatically to the defendant’s nearest county court if:

* the case is defended, and
* the claim is for a fixed amount, and
* the defendant is an individual, not a company.

In other cases, either party can ask for the case to be transferred to another county court.

[kendalcottages]

Yes, this is correct. I once took someone to court in Cornwall and had exactly this happen.

Obviously, if you win the case, you can request that your travel (and subsistence) costs are addressed also.

In my case, I chose not to attend (it was the time more than anything that I couldn't afford to lose!) but sent in a letter explaining my absence and re-iterating my case. I was still successful, but I feel my case might have been stronger had I actually been there.

[Lee]

Yes, this is correct. I once took someone to court in Cornwall and had exactly this happen............

what happend in your case KC

[kendalcottages]

I had done a website for a holiday park in Cornwall.

They didn't pay.

I took them to court.

They transferred the case to be heard at their own court.

I didn't attend but sent a letter apologising that I couldn't make it and re-asserting my case (documents had already been submitted earlier).

I received a verdict in the post saying that I'd won.

Cheque later arrived from the client.

Job done.

I used to have around 2 or 3 cases like this a year with my other business. Thankfully now it hardly ever happens (I haven't had to take anyone to court for 5+ years now) basically because I've changed the way I do business, and I request a significant part payment up front. Some people don't like this and I suspect it's the same people who might have been a problem. Those that are happy to stump up some cash at the onset don't seem to mess about.