I understand that if the owner is not in residence and renting, then a compliant pool fence is necessary. Does anyone have a wording for contract that ensures that the renters assume liability for "due care" ensuring fence is secure etc.
Thanks
Eugene
French Swimming pool Regulations - Renting
French Swimming pool Regulations - Renting
New owners of converted barn. New to French Property scene....help!
Even if the owner is in residence, renting or not, it is now the law that you have either a pool fence or an alarm fitted to the pool. I am not sure if a contract that the renters assume liability would work in the legal frame work , but i dont know the law so cant help with that one.
We have an alarm fitted and i explain how this works to guests but last year did find that guests were just leaving it turn off, really dont know how i stand if anything did happen though.
We have an alarm fitted and i explain how this works to guests but last year did find that guests were just leaving it turn off, really dont know how i stand if anything did happen though.
Nessie
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Alan Knighting
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All,
Under the French law there are four approved “safety� methods one can adopt. They are mutually exclusive although they can be used in combination.
They are:-
Whichever system is chosen, it must comply with the French law and with the AFNOR regulations. The practicalities of each system depend on the individual circumstances. There are no circumstances under which the law says you must have an alarm or a fence.
Alan
Under the French law there are four approved “safety� methods one can adopt. They are mutually exclusive although they can be used in combination.
They are:-
- An alarm system,
A fencing system,
A rigid cover, or
An Abri.
Whichever system is chosen, it must comply with the French law and with the AFNOR regulations. The practicalities of each system depend on the individual circumstances. There are no circumstances under which the law says you must have an alarm or a fence.
Alan
I think the problem with the alarm option is that the alarm must be audible in all parts of the house and capble of being acted upon. If the house is vacant and a neighbouring child (under 5 years... unlikely etc. but always expect the unexpected) wanders in and falls in the pool, then the alarm can be working properly, switched on and heard by nobody. That is why I feel safer with fence.
Eugene
Eugene
New owners of converted barn. New to French Property scene....help!
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marcus
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Glad to see we are doing the same as others - fence for safety and keeping children away, alarm for legal compliance. One thing concerned me Nessie:
We don't add wording trying to transfer or comment on anyone's legal responsibilities, because I don't think it would mean anything, but in the property notes we do clearly state that children safety in the pool is still above all the reponsibility of parents, not the alarm...
I thought that compliant alarms automatically reset - when our water is completely still for 1 minute the alarm turns itself on again. Annoying for people who like to relax on a floating inflatable bed, then can't get back to the edge without setting the alarm off, but otherwise a good idea...otherwise I think you would be responsible, if there was an accident in a pool in the alarm had been turned off, intentionally or otherwiseWe have an alarm fitted and I explain how this works to guests but last year did find that guests were just leaving it turn off
We don't add wording trying to transfer or comment on anyone's legal responsibilities, because I don't think it would mean anything, but in the property notes we do clearly state that children safety in the pool is still above all the reponsibility of parents, not the alarm...
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Alan Knighting
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- Location: Monflanquin, Lot-et-Garonne, France
Eugene,
Safer from what? The answer is; the risk of drowning. Parental supervision and responsibility are the paramount factors. The laws of safety to which an owner must comply are secondary but nevertheless necessary.
The former is something you can’t replace, and you’re not obliged to. The latter is what you must do in order to supply a “safe� system.
There is no one single answer. An “active� alarm system can be the answer. A “passive� fence or cover or abri system can be the answer. That’s why I say the practicalities of each system depend on the individual circumstances.
Alan
The point is not what you feel safe with. The point is what is the child safe with?That is why I feel safer with fence.
Safer from what? The answer is; the risk of drowning. Parental supervision and responsibility are the paramount factors. The laws of safety to which an owner must comply are secondary but nevertheless necessary.
The former is something you can’t replace, and you’re not obliged to. The latter is what you must do in order to supply a “safe� system.
There is no one single answer. An “active� alarm system can be the answer. A “passive� fence or cover or abri system can be the answer. That’s why I say the practicalities of each system depend on the individual circumstances.
Alan
Alan,
What I mean by "safer" is my concern at a great remove in Ireland for the safety of children and of course our responsibilities/liabilities. I think a fence gate is more likely to be closed than an alarm reset and then I assume the alarm can malfunction or run out of power etc.
I intend to use both.
BTW from a legal standpoint, Piscine Plus in Gaillac recommended that I put responsibility/liability? on renters through my contract.
I don't know how successful that is/would be.
Eugene
What I mean by "safer" is my concern at a great remove in Ireland for the safety of children and of course our responsibilities/liabilities. I think a fence gate is more likely to be closed than an alarm reset and then I assume the alarm can malfunction or run out of power etc.
I intend to use both.
BTW from a legal standpoint, Piscine Plus in Gaillac recommended that I put responsibility/liability? on renters through my contract.
I don't know how successful that is/would be.
Eugene
New owners of converted barn. New to French Property scene....help!
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Alan Knighting
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- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
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Eugene,
All four systems have their pluses and minuses, most of them very obvious. One could argue the merits and demerits until the cows come home but it’s pointless.
I live on site so alarms are the right option for me. I am into my third year of using them; they can be heard anywhere on my property; they always automatically re-set after use; I change the batteries each year even though there’s plenty power left in them. If I was an absentee landlord I might make a different choice.
From a legal point of view it is your responsibility to comply with the law by fitting one, or more, complying system.
Subject to that, proper supervision remains the paramount responsibility of the parents – even the AFNOR documentation acknowledges this. The fitting of a safety system does not replace or negate parental responsibility in any way
I think it is a very good idea to remind parents of their responsibilities by including it in whatever documentation you use when taking a booking.
Alan
All four systems have their pluses and minuses, most of them very obvious. One could argue the merits and demerits until the cows come home but it’s pointless.
I live on site so alarms are the right option for me. I am into my third year of using them; they can be heard anywhere on my property; they always automatically re-set after use; I change the batteries each year even though there’s plenty power left in them. If I was an absentee landlord I might make a different choice.
From a legal point of view it is your responsibility to comply with the law by fitting one, or more, complying system.
Subject to that, proper supervision remains the paramount responsibility of the parents – even the AFNOR documentation acknowledges this. The fitting of a safety system does not replace or negate parental responsibility in any way
I think it is a very good idea to remind parents of their responsibilities by including it in whatever documentation you use when taking a booking.
Alan
Alan,
Thanks for your comments. A separate question if you don't mind. I picked up a contract wording on one of the threads (French & English). Is it sufficient to get the renters to sign a "contract" with T&Cs or do we need to sign first. I ask this as it would seem most appropriate/convenient to email people with details when "landing" the booking?
Regards
Eugene
Thanks for your comments. A separate question if you don't mind. I picked up a contract wording on one of the threads (French & English). Is it sufficient to get the renters to sign a "contract" with T&Cs or do we need to sign first. I ask this as it would seem most appropriate/convenient to email people with details when "landing" the booking?
Regards
Eugene
New owners of converted barn. New to French Property scene....help!
Swimming pool safety
We are in the process of installing a swimming pool for our newly converted barn gite. Bought from PPL in Gaillac and thought we would go back to them for advice when pool ready (gites not yet rented out hoping for late summer opening). Feel inclined to go for an alarm and fencing although know through experience how annoying an alarm can be (rented a villa in Florida last year, adults only and could not turn off the alarm which went off every time someone opened the back door from the house into the pool area!).
In order to comply with legal requirements do I need to purchase fencing which is officially approved or is any non-climbable fencing OK?
Any advice on this subject welcome as the last thing anyone wants is an accident in their swimming pool.
Mary
In order to comply with legal requirements do I need to purchase fencing which is officially approved or is any non-climbable fencing OK?
Any advice on this subject welcome as the last thing anyone wants is an accident in their swimming pool.
Mary
It depends on who you talk to.
You can in theory self certificate your fence, ie build a fence which meets all the regulations for height etc. Many people will tell you that you HAVE to have a certified fence. In any case if you have an alarm fitted then, for now, that will meet your legal obligations and you can then put in any fence you want.
Ju
You can in theory self certificate your fence, ie build a fence which meets all the regulations for height etc. Many people will tell you that you HAVE to have a certified fence. In any case if you have an alarm fitted then, for now, that will meet your legal obligations and you can then put in any fence you want.
Ju
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Alan Knighting
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Ju,
This is not just a legal subject; it’s also an emotive subject.
Prior to the 1st of May 2004 very few pool owners in France had fitted any safety systems. On the 1st May 2004 most pool owners in France who were affected by the new law installed one or another conforming safety system so that they were in compliance with the law. A minority installed a system and then adopted the claim that they were doing it for safety and not legal reasons.
My feeling is that, if that minority was ever truly concerned with safety it would already have had its systems in place no matter what the law said. But that minority didn’t - like the rest of us it was responding to legal obligations.
In the early days any system needed to have NF certification or self-certification (personal or manufacturer) through the offices of AFNOR. That is no longer the case – basically what’s authorised in the EC is authorised in France.
There are four systems which potentially comply with the law. They are totally and utterly mutually exclusive. In other words anyone saying that any of them can only be used in combination is not telling you the truth.
Always bear in mind that the price of alarm is relatively small and the profit to a supplier is tiny. The price of a plastic “monkey cage� around your pool is relatively high and the profit margin to a supplier is even higher. If you wanted to profit out of safety which one would you try to sell?
My position is quite simple. I need to comply with the law. I looked at the four systems and I decided which best suited my circumstances.
We are talking about swimming pool legislation which is targeted at the safety of children under the age of five. Even the legislation recognises that the paramount responsibility for the well being and safety of children under the age of five remains with the parents.
I’m hugely sympathetic towards children but I’m not going to take on the responsibilities of their “dick headed� parents – are you?
Should I now discard my Fluffy nickname?
Alan
This is not just a legal subject; it’s also an emotive subject.
Prior to the 1st of May 2004 very few pool owners in France had fitted any safety systems. On the 1st May 2004 most pool owners in France who were affected by the new law installed one or another conforming safety system so that they were in compliance with the law. A minority installed a system and then adopted the claim that they were doing it for safety and not legal reasons.
My feeling is that, if that minority was ever truly concerned with safety it would already have had its systems in place no matter what the law said. But that minority didn’t - like the rest of us it was responding to legal obligations.
In the early days any system needed to have NF certification or self-certification (personal or manufacturer) through the offices of AFNOR. That is no longer the case – basically what’s authorised in the EC is authorised in France.
There are four systems which potentially comply with the law. They are totally and utterly mutually exclusive. In other words anyone saying that any of them can only be used in combination is not telling you the truth.
Always bear in mind that the price of alarm is relatively small and the profit to a supplier is tiny. The price of a plastic “monkey cage� around your pool is relatively high and the profit margin to a supplier is even higher. If you wanted to profit out of safety which one would you try to sell?
My position is quite simple. I need to comply with the law. I looked at the four systems and I decided which best suited my circumstances.
We are talking about swimming pool legislation which is targeted at the safety of children under the age of five. Even the legislation recognises that the paramount responsibility for the well being and safety of children under the age of five remains with the parents.
I’m hugely sympathetic towards children but I’m not going to take on the responsibilities of their “dick headed� parents – are you?
Should I now discard my Fluffy nickname?
Alan