Can this Tax bill be right?
I haven't see any mention of people filling in the CRDS, CSG (social contributions) part of the tax form ?
As far as the Impôts are concerned, this is payable by gîte owners and B&B patrons, as well as almost everyone else. If you have not been paying this tax, be warned, we know and I mean actually know, of three couples who this year and last year got a demand out of the blue for this tax. It works out at around 11% on the taxable part of the income, whether you earn a sufficient amount or not, to actually pay impôt !
As far as the Impôts are concerned, this is payable by gîte owners and B&B patrons, as well as almost everyone else. If you have not been paying this tax, be warned, we know and I mean actually know, of three couples who this year and last year got a demand out of the blue for this tax. It works out at around 11% on the taxable part of the income, whether you earn a sufficient amount or not, to actually pay impôt !
Ville
For those out there who don't know the system, don't forget that the income tax in France is the least of your problems. The social contributions (cotestations) far outweigh the tax. Paolo as you have children you are unlikely to pay any tax, but lots of cotestations. The 72% limit does not unfortunately apply to cotestations in the same way.
For the last year we are very close to the micro bic limit, yet our tax bill for the year is only 220 Euros. Our cotestations on the other hand are over ten thousand for the year (the OH does the figure so I can't give you exact numbers)
Ju
For the last year we are very close to the micro bic limit, yet our tax bill for the year is only 220 Euros. Our cotestations on the other hand are over ten thousand for the year (the OH does the figure so I can't give you exact numbers)
Ju
That is partly why I work as well as run the gites, to avoid the cotisations. As long as your salary/other income is equal or more than the net generated by rental income after the abattement you don't need to pay them. Most of my friends who work and have children pay very little income tax if any.
Susan,
Sorry, I am not clear on what you are saying here.
Sorry, I am not clear on what you are saying here.
Yes, income tax can be nil in many cases of owners of B&B or Gîtes but, that will not avoid one having to pay the social taxes and that is whether you are, or not, registered at the Ch de Commerce (and paying all ones other cotisations !!)That is partly why I work as well as run the gites, to avoid the cotisations
Ville
Ville,
Welcome to the forum!
In answer to your question I am a salarié and therefore pay sufficient cotisations through my job, as does my employer. I pay the impôts contributions sociales, but I don't have to pay into AVA or anything like that. I have a French accountant (and have checked with other accountants) and this is what applies:
"Si votre revenu généré est inférieur à 50% du revenu global vous serez dans ce cas loueur non professionel, meme si d'inscription au RCS, donc pas de régime de cotisations sociales."
Do you have gites in this area?
Welcome to the forum!
In answer to your question I am a salarié and therefore pay sufficient cotisations through my job, as does my employer. I pay the impôts contributions sociales, but I don't have to pay into AVA or anything like that. I have a French accountant (and have checked with other accountants) and this is what applies:
"Si votre revenu généré est inférieur à 50% du revenu global vous serez dans ce cas loueur non professionel, meme si d'inscription au RCS, donc pas de régime de cotisations sociales."
Do you have gites in this area?
Ah, that explains it, sorry but not knowing your full details, I thought we were just talking of you only having a B&B, gites etc.
As you say, just like Farmers, for instance, who of course have other employment and therefore earn more in their normal employment than the revenue for their gîte etc, further cotisations are not payable on their B&B or gite turnovers, just the possibilty of paying extra impôt.
As you say, just like Farmers, for instance, who of course have other employment and therefore earn more in their normal employment than the revenue for their gîte etc, further cotisations are not payable on their B&B or gite turnovers, just the possibilty of paying extra impôt.
Ville
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Alan Knighting
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Paul Carmel
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Well yesterday we were able to get all our previous tax forms from the house while we were doing changeover, and have now had a look through them all. One thing which has become clear is that we are definitely classed as Professionel. This would appear to be because it is our sole income, not less than 50%. So basically it appears that we should simply have put the same figure in the box directly above the one we filled in.Susan wrote:Paul,
you filled in the professionel section, you should have filled in the next section, C1, Revenus industriels et commerciaux non professionels, box NO (Vente de marchandises ou locations meublées non professionelles). Never trust a fonctionnaire!
Try and get it sorted asap - otherwise you will have to pay the tax they stated by the due and then wait for a refund.
Good luck!
Also, reading the notes which came with the Avis, as the amount of the bill is less than €3000 it seems that if we ask for the payment to be suspended then they will automatically do this. If afterwards they decide, however, that the bill is correct then we will have to pay it with 10% extra as a late fine.
Anyway thanks again for all the advice, I'll let you know the outcome!
Last edited by Paul Carmel on Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers
PC
PC
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Alan Knighting
- Posts: 4120
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:26 am
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Paul Carmel
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- Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:25 pm
- Location: Palma Mallorca & Greece
- Contact:
Hi everyone,
I thought I’d give you an update on our tax bill situation – maybe it will be useful for others to know . . .
Well we’ve been back in to the tax office, and everyone there was very helpful, which helps. The woman we first saw realised right away that of course the figure should have been in the box for ventes, not prestations, and took the declaration off to rectify right away. So, the good news is that we don’t have to pay the bill of €2200 – hurrah! There’s bad news too though, in fact worse, concerning the cotisations and the prime pour l’emploi.
We’ve received a cheque for the prime pour l’emploi each year, averaging around €500, which we’ve been happy to receive and have always thought to be very generous of the French government! Now however it turns out we should never have had it and we will have to pay it back. This is because it is based on the number of days you work, and this means the number of days the property is rented out for. In our case this was 140 days last year. They then use this figure and the total rental income to work out what you would have earned if the property was rented for 365 days of the year – never mind that a) the property isn’t sitting there empty and available as we live there when it isn’t rented, and b) no one wants to come to Corsica in the winter, it’s pretty much closed! Anyway the figure for the number of days rented should go in Section G, box NV.
The man who we were seeing by this point then asked if we were registered with the Chambre de Commerce (which we’re not and nor do we want to be, from what everyone says!). He didn’t seem at all bothered that we weren’t, but said we should be paying the contributions socials, which we haven’t been. The figure for 28% of the total rental income should be put in Section F, box HY, and he reckoned the cotisations would be about 10% of this.
The extra bad news for us is that this is all going to be backdated to 2003, so we should expect a bill for at least €5000. We are going back there next week to do a letter with them, asking to rectify our situation. As we have received a few bills from URSSAF in the past, we’re going to take them with us as perhaps they can be deducted?? Probably not but worth a shot. The man reckoned it would probably take a while to process so we’re hoping that will be true as we’re now entering a lean period until bookings start hopefully pouring in in Jan.
When we first arrived in 2001 we went in to the tax office to explain what we were doing and to make sure that we were properly registered etc. Each year we’ve also gone in with the declaration and gone through it with someone to make sure it is correct. At no point has anyone ever mentioned the contributions socials – in fact we weren’t aware of them until Ville posted on this topic. So while we understand we have to pay it, and don’t have a problem with that, we’re a bit annoyed that this has suddenly been sprung on us and hope that the fact we have always checked the form with them may enable us to get an extension on the payment date.
So, if you haven’t been paying the cotisations, or have been receiving the prime based on being rented out all year round, be warned! It certainly does seem that they are on a mission about this one.
I thought I’d give you an update on our tax bill situation – maybe it will be useful for others to know . . .
Well we’ve been back in to the tax office, and everyone there was very helpful, which helps. The woman we first saw realised right away that of course the figure should have been in the box for ventes, not prestations, and took the declaration off to rectify right away. So, the good news is that we don’t have to pay the bill of €2200 – hurrah! There’s bad news too though, in fact worse, concerning the cotisations and the prime pour l’emploi.
We’ve received a cheque for the prime pour l’emploi each year, averaging around €500, which we’ve been happy to receive and have always thought to be very generous of the French government! Now however it turns out we should never have had it and we will have to pay it back. This is because it is based on the number of days you work, and this means the number of days the property is rented out for. In our case this was 140 days last year. They then use this figure and the total rental income to work out what you would have earned if the property was rented for 365 days of the year – never mind that a) the property isn’t sitting there empty and available as we live there when it isn’t rented, and b) no one wants to come to Corsica in the winter, it’s pretty much closed! Anyway the figure for the number of days rented should go in Section G, box NV.
The man who we were seeing by this point then asked if we were registered with the Chambre de Commerce (which we’re not and nor do we want to be, from what everyone says!). He didn’t seem at all bothered that we weren’t, but said we should be paying the contributions socials, which we haven’t been. The figure for 28% of the total rental income should be put in Section F, box HY, and he reckoned the cotisations would be about 10% of this.
The extra bad news for us is that this is all going to be backdated to 2003, so we should expect a bill for at least €5000. We are going back there next week to do a letter with them, asking to rectify our situation. As we have received a few bills from URSSAF in the past, we’re going to take them with us as perhaps they can be deducted?? Probably not but worth a shot. The man reckoned it would probably take a while to process so we’re hoping that will be true as we’re now entering a lean period until bookings start hopefully pouring in in Jan.
When we first arrived in 2001 we went in to the tax office to explain what we were doing and to make sure that we were properly registered etc. Each year we’ve also gone in with the declaration and gone through it with someone to make sure it is correct. At no point has anyone ever mentioned the contributions socials – in fact we weren’t aware of them until Ville posted on this topic. So while we understand we have to pay it, and don’t have a problem with that, we’re a bit annoyed that this has suddenly been sprung on us and hope that the fact we have always checked the form with them may enable us to get an extension on the payment date.
So, if you haven’t been paying the cotisations, or have been receiving the prime based on being rented out all year round, be warned! It certainly does seem that they are on a mission about this one.
Cheers
PC
PC
Sorry that you have had that damned awful tax sprung on you by both myself and worse still, by the Impôts.
The reason being many do not know of it, is beacuse they have not been made aware about it.
This is because in France you are expected to know and yes the old adage, ignorance is no excuse, is the ever present reply from tax officers !
It is there in Black and White at the end (I think at the end. it is too painful to go and look on one of our forms !!) for one to fill in and there is help on the internet and in the explanations sent with the annual tax forms to help you to fill it in but you are in no way alone and I certainly do not mean to have jibes at anyone but, seeing as how you are now being given a facture for this social tax, perhaps we should all shout it a little louder, to ensure that it doesn't catch out the many, many folks unaware (deliberatley in some cases is my guess, not inc. you Paul I hasten to add).
You are a little unlucky but lucky in that 3 years is the most they normally go back in these cases.
What a 'orrible shock though !
The reason being many do not know of it, is beacuse they have not been made aware about it.
This is because in France you are expected to know and yes the old adage, ignorance is no excuse, is the ever present reply from tax officers !
It is there in Black and White at the end (I think at the end. it is too painful to go and look on one of our forms !!) for one to fill in and there is help on the internet and in the explanations sent with the annual tax forms to help you to fill it in but you are in no way alone and I certainly do not mean to have jibes at anyone but, seeing as how you are now being given a facture for this social tax, perhaps we should all shout it a little louder, to ensure that it doesn't catch out the many, many folks unaware (deliberatley in some cases is my guess, not inc. you Paul I hasten to add).
You are a little unlucky but lucky in that 3 years is the most they normally go back in these cases.
What a 'orrible shock though !
Ville
Just to clarify, we are talking about the contributions sociales, which is a tax, as opposed to a cotisation? I thought this was a tax payable by everyone to pay off the Secu debt - I didn't think it had anything to do with cotisation payments to URSAFF, AVA etc. Even my accountant forgot to fill in the box for the 2004 tax return and I'm still waiting for the bill from the tax office, so it is an easy one to miss. For anyone who wants to check, it is section F1 box HY, where you put in the revenue minus the 72% abattement.
Susan
I'm not sure, to me the difference between a tax and a cotestation is non-existant.
We pay cotestations to the URSSAF, retrait and santé. The three together, as far as I am concerned, make up my contributions socials.
We put everything through the accountant so I coulmdn't tell you all the fine details.
Paul, I am sorry you will have to back date all this, but I think it is something many get caught out on. Everyone concertrates on the Tax situation, forgetting that the social side (ie National Insurance in the UK) is far more expensive than the tax. I would think that anything you have paid to the URSSAF in the past few years should be deducted from your back dated bill.
Ju
I'm not sure, to me the difference between a tax and a cotestation is non-existant.
We pay cotestations to the URSSAF, retrait and santé. The three together, as far as I am concerned, make up my contributions socials.
We put everything through the accountant so I coulmdn't tell you all the fine details.
Paul, I am sorry you will have to back date all this, but I think it is something many get caught out on. Everyone concertrates on the Tax situation, forgetting that the social side (ie National Insurance in the UK) is far more expensive than the tax. I would think that anything you have paid to the URSSAF in the past few years should be deducted from your back dated bill.
Ju