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Paypal chargeback - any experience?
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ianh100



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Sherborne Dorset

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Paypal chargeback - any experience? Reply with quote

Hi All,

Has anyone had experience with Paypal chargeback? We just had our account frozen (a large negative charge back) for a guest that stayed a couple of months back.

This was a booking via Facebook which was a bit strange at the time. They paid the deposit by bank transfer but wanted to pay the rest cash on arrival which we refused and suggested Paypal.

The guests stayed, enjoyed and were asking to book again next year. Now we get this chargeback that looks like it is a credit card company disputing an unauthorized payment.

I contacted the guest who seemed in phased by this and suggested it was her ex partner who had done this (for some reason he had paid for the booking). She said that she had been contacted by someone else with a similar complaint.

My experience with Paypal is they always lean towards the buyer and just give the money back. If that happens I am not sure where it leaves me other than out of pocket.

I provided lots of evidence to Paypal. I have all of the guests details including an electronic acceptance of our T&C. I have all of the correspondence and I have screen shots of the guest staying at the property as they are using this as their facebook profile!

Its not clear if this is a bitter ex partner or if the card details were used fraudulently. If Paypal give the card company the funds back I assume my only option is to pursue the guest and threaten a small claims case.

Anyone faced this before?
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Zingara



Joined: 09 Apr 2013
Posts: 613
Location: Antibes, PACA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume that they're within the time limits for a charge-back...although it may not be relevant if there's a fraud claim pending? Presumably you can only 'thaw' your Paypal account by allowing the funds to be returned?

You've done what you can to show that she genuinely stayed, there may not be much more you can do ?

Your only option may well be to claim from the guest. You should inform her that the payment is her responsibility, and ask her to settle. If she doesn't, then, yes, small claims court...

As nice a guest as she was, you won't be welcoming her back, will you?
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ianh100



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Sherborne Dorset

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Zingara,

The payment was in September so I think this is not the normal Paypal chargeback process. It reads as if a credit card company has raised it with Paypal and an unauthorised payment.

You are correct I can only "thaw" my account by paying several hundred pounds in. To make that more annoying we had over £200 in the account from recent Ebay sales of some of my kids stuff.
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COYS



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 794
Location: Greek Islands

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Paypal chargeback - any experience? Reply with quote

Donít they have Resolution Centre for such things rather than hanging you out to the small claims process? Seems a long time to uncover a possible card fraud & unless it is blatant fraud you seem to have the ball firmly in your court.
Are PP actively looking into it whilst your account is frozen or just leaving you to it? Surely not?
Iím not sure legally where it would leave you in chasing repayment - from the guest that stayed, who already seems unperturbed by it or the ex that Ďpaidí. No help now but lesson 1 would be to not accept 3rd party payments.
I use PP sparingly these days or as a last resort & although have never suffered it, always thought the chargeback process is wide open to abuse or spurious claim - isnít it 180 days now? (CMIIW) Thatís a long time, especially in this business.
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ianh100



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Sherborne Dorset

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Coys, We are in the "resolution" process I just worry that they will take the path of least resistance and take the money from the seller (me).
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COYS



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 794
Location: Greek Islands

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope not ianh100, although unfortunately I suppose that is always their easy route out. There seems to be dwindling protection for sellers or providers these days & yet bucketloads for buyers.
Stick to your guns & best of luck with it.
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akwe-xavante



Joined: 01 Jul 2015
Posts: 293
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks to me as though the guests paid by card via the PayPal service and the card holder has requested a chargeback from the card company. Only the card holder can do this, If the card is in joint names then either person can request a chargeback. If her ex partner paid with a card in his name only then only he can request a charge back on that transaction, she can't.

She may of booked but did he pay, or i'll beggar the question....... Did she book and then pay using someone else's card without permission, be it her partners or a cloned / stolen card.

Did she dump him and he's very bitter and want's his money back!? He will get his money back claiming she booked in her name and used his card without his permission. Or he may even claim that he does not know what the money taken was for at all!!! If asked who Mrs Smith is, he'll just say that he has no idea. He'll get his money back.

Paypal and eBay seller / buyer protection NO NO NO it's all about eBay and Paypal protecting themselves firstly then the buyer, never the seller and especially if your account is a business account.

I take payments for my eBay sales using paypal for things under £50, over this value I never offer paypal as an option for buying something I sell and never to overseas buyers.

I may be proven wrong but if I were you I would wave bye bye to the money and move on and never take payments in future via paypal. Keep trying obviously, don't give in, but I'd consider it gone myself.

Paying for things via the Paypal system is great for the buyer and when it all goes smoothly it's great for the seller too. But if things go wrong the seller invariably looses out every time even when it's not there fault. Well that's my experience anyway.
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Zingara



Joined: 09 Apr 2013
Posts: 613
Location: Antibes, PACA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with A-X...the chargeback is likely to be 'honoured' if it's fraudulent, for whatever reason (all of the above seem likely!)

It still remains the booker's financial responsibility, and whilst you might not get anywhere, it's surely worth invoicing her...?
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ianh100



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Sherborne Dorset

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,
Paypal have now charged me an additional £14 chargeback fee and have clarified that anything they can't track with an online tracking service (physical product) is not covered by the so called seller protection. We will no longer take Paypal, a lesson learned.

I am still in contact with the original guest who has thankfully not blocked me on Facebook. They have told us they will settle the debt but lets wait and see.
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Joanna



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 931
Location: Chester, North West England & Sidmouth, East Devon

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about this Ian, I think it's time I removed PayPal from our payment options too. We used to find that overseas guests preferred it but I've recently set up Wave & Stripe for card payments so hopefully that will replace PayPal. Although, I suppose that a similar thing could happen with any card payment.
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Joint owner of Baker's Cottage in Chester & Chandler's Cottage in Sidmouth
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russellt



Joined: 09 Dec 2014
Posts: 350
Location: Ivybridge, Devon, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joanna wrote:
I think it's time I removed PayPal from our payment options too.


+1
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ianh100



Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Sherborne Dorset

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All, an update but not a great one.

My "guest" has continued to promise to pay the outstanding money but it never came. I gave a number of warnings and finally raised a small claims process. (more money wasted).

Doing a bit of research this evening and I came across a couple of press articles all about my lovely guest.

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/ipswich-cleaner-michelle-smyth-must-pay-back-1-500-after-stealing-from-her-clients-1-4096074

Having been in jail three times in recent years for theft and fraud I don't think I am going to see my money back.

I even upgraded her and her family!!!

Thank god it was a week in the autumn and not the summer.
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COYS



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 794
Location: Greek Islands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch!
No help to you at all ianh100 & I know it was an FB origin booking. But with holiday lets seemingly crashing toward a no contact, instant/book now future, 'managed' by disinterested 3rd parties there will be increased opportunity for the unscrupulous to exploit.
The chargeback process appears heavily weighted for buyers but offers almost nothing to sellers/providers paying the high processing fees.
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Fleur



Joined: 25 Jan 2011
Posts: 433
Location: S.W. France

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: PayPal dilemma Reply with quote

@Ianh100

My sympathies. What a dreadful experience, you couldn't make it up could you!
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Ecosse



Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 802
Location: Saint Gervais les Bains, France

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooft, that's rough, Ianh, my sympathies. I can see how you didn't suspect anything during their holiday either: she looks so normal in her photo.
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